2 words... DOUBLE ELIMINATION... Sadly riot hates it just like other nice features that other esports have like booths
I love Thoorin, but he made fun of TSM fans for being upset with the same thing last year. They were 1st seed then drew Samsung and RNG into their group. Just funny that he only cares now that it happened to G2 but laughed about it happening to the other.
Come on Thorin. There is no world in which you would KNOW that other teams are better or worse. EDG was a #1 seed team and they earned it but they are slightly worse than RNG and WE right now.
OR we get GAM who can surprise. or we had times where the 3rd seed from KR did not perform.
The only optional system instead of a pool system is a ranking by achievements from previous worlds (points given by WCS ending rank and the points accumulated over the last 2 years will put you in a higher pool). Problem with that system is that newer teams will be fucked, even when they might have performed better than others domestically. A team like MSF might become a worse sees than FNC and G2 then even if they would have won the summer split, which says "great, you did win, but we won't acknowledge it".
The problem is that there is no FAIR system. Even Thorins system sucks, because he has no system in which he can rank the teams. You can only rank teams based on performances they have shown (regular split standings or playoff rank). Thorins system sucks even more because it is based on speculation and preferences and that means once someone doesn't like it he can say "oh, they got favored in the seeding system by a biased person".
the current system at least has one advantage: Nobody can blame it on being biased, only on randomness, which is what most sports prefer.
The only thing I agree with him is that we don't need the region lock as much anymore. I think you could allow 2 teams of the same region into one grp (still avoid 3).
Damn, he's quick.
He talks a lot about how TSM got fucked last year in this video too.
Thorin likes to troll people and make people mad. TSM fans last year were an easy target.
Everyone with a brain knew TSM got fucked by the ridiculous system last year just like G2 did this year.
Assuming they used a different seeding system where they ranked teams on a "expert analyst" power ranking instead of based on regional ranking, you would have the korean teams all having top ranks. Meanwhile EU/NA/LMS wouldn't necessarily have close rankings with their own region. So for example a theoretical power ranking would be (based this on ESPN's worlds 2017 power rankings):SKT LZ SSG WE RNG TSM G2 EDG FW IMT MSF FNC C9 FB AHQ GAM
Tier 1 Seeds: SKT, LZ, SSG, WE
Tier 2 Seeds: RNG, TSM, G2, EDG
Tier 3 Seeds: FW, IMT, MSF, FNC
Tier 4 Seeds: C9, FB, AHQ, GAM
Rules: No region-dodging, Group will consist of a Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3 and Tier 4 seed.
Assuming this ruleset, you could theoretically have a group where NA/EU/LMS(and even china) could have teams from their own region still intheir group, since they are in different seeding brackets. On the other hand, all of the korean teams got first seeds so it wouldn't be possible for them to match up in the same group. A group like [SKT, TSM, IMT, C9] could exist, since they're all in different tiers, but [SKT, LZ, SSG, WE] couldn't, since they're all Tier 1 teams.
Or a different group system.
Im more salty that, since SSG came 2nd, we could end up with a situation that LZ and SKT are on the same side of the bracket, and SSG vs LZ in the quarters.
Which basically eliminates 2 of these 3 teams (and all 3 are, top 4 or top 5 in the tournament) by the semi finals.
On his last point about getting rid of region-dodging, why does Thorin think that EU/NA/LMS teams can have teams from the same region in groups but all 3 KR teams would be in different groups? I didn't fully get how he arrived at that point.
He probably makes these spotaneusly on the spot almost every time
Even though i disagree with most of the detailed placing of that ranking, it dosn't really matter as long as the overall quality is good, as there are 4 teams in each tier. Those tiers are a 100 times more accurate than the tiers we got right now
Only on Twitter as a joke. He defended them on SI
And have a random eu or na team get smashed in the final
The system is only "broken" because Koreans are so much better than anyone else. But still if you want to determine the best team of the World the system is fine.
If you want to determine lets say the top 4 teams at worlds the groups have to be bigger to have a better comparision between all teams. But seeding groups based on analysts opinions is absolutely toxic and in no way fair.
Wrote a solid article after groups last year about how people need to stop discounting the team and its accomplishments just because of that end result. He praised Regi and the team for how much revenue they gave up by focusing on the game rather than streaming and Regi hiring more names to the TSM brand to keep up with events so the team could focus.
We don't even know if TSM is making it out of groups yet
Yeah, and most likely already though on topic beforehand, as it is a problem he already addressed two years ago, and still persists.
He was more than fair with TSM last year.
Apparently RNG doesnt exist?
Fighting games use it and its amazing.
Most fighting games can play an entire set before a single League game gets to lategame. On top of that, fighting games play dozens of sets simultaneously.
Unfortunate, but true. Fighting games use it and its amazing. Starcraft uses it (mostly) and it's amazing. Other games(dota2) also use it and its amazing. Meanwhile league uses same flawed system for years and ignores the fact that it leads to bullshit like having finals match in quaters.
League worlds is about one thing - finding the best team.
No it's not, else Korea would get 5+ seeds and play-in teams wouldn't be given a chance, it also wouldn't have B01's. It's about regions clashing and entertainment, not having a competitive tournament.
With all the chances teams get, if they can't win under the current system, they aren't the best team.
This logic so so dumb why do people say this, as if there's no glory in being the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th best team in the world (you also get more prize money/exposure), it's not only about the #1 team.
I get the crappy results group wise we get as a complaint, but whats the solution tbh?
How can you factor in teams that are better/worse than the seed they have earned via split results?
The system is not necessarily broken. The concept of "Group of Death" very commonly happened in other competitions too. The alternative of using "reality based ranking by experts" would simply be more problematic because people would never agree on rankings.
If the current system is deemed problematic, the easiest solution is:
Keep region dodging
15 teams in total: 3 Groups of 5 teams each. Therefore, each group will have 1 team from Korea, China, NA, EU (assuming NA and EU have 3 spots each) no more being lucky and dodge Korean team to get easy group stage.
Top 2 of the group qualified to Quarter Finals (A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2)
3rd place teams go into tie-breaker to get that 7th and 8th spot in the Quarter Finals
The 7th and 8th place teams can only be drawn against A1, B1, C1 and cannot draw from the same group. The group winner that wasn't picked by 7th and 8th get to choose who they want to play against out of the 3 remaining teams (A2, B2, C2) except the one from their own group.
Done and easy.
After seeing week 2 NA start I have no expectations :(
While RNG is good I could definetly see an EU or NA team beating them.
Lol, he made the first video on this in S5, before the groups were drawn for that year's Worlds- before he knew TSM would get fucked that year and wayyy before he knew they would get fucked in S6.
Given that Fnatic made it out of group with LZ and a 2/4 record and G2 didn't with 3/3 and SSG ... he is right. YOu are better off with LZ in your group. As stupid as this might seem.
Fnatic aren't beating them. C9 aren't beating them. TSM maybe, but even then I doubt it because I feel RNG would stomp over them early on. Misfits aren't beating them.
G2 I admit probably would, but they're eliminated, so it doesn't matter.
Agree with you, in the end you never know how a team will perform. Those biased ranking are worse than anything.
The current system is fine, yeah it gives a death group, but before World start this year every groups were stacked. Then you see team performing, then you say this group was easy and this one was harder.
It's not like we have a full year of international events to actually do proper seeding. RR and MSI are far from being enough. G2 got second at MSI but got smashed by NA at RR which didn't get out of group at MSI. Korea won MSI but lost RR against China that didn't pass semi final at MSI.
Good luck making ranking that actually proves to be accurate. Because some teams will always under perform while some over perform.
If you want to make things more fair, change the format not the seeding.
Other games use it because they want tournaments to rank teams.
With all the regional separation, League worlds is about one thing - finding the best team. With all the chances teams get, if they can't win under the current system, they aren't the best team.
samsung just got 2-0'd by RNG and last year a wildcard made it out of groups. Your guarantees are worth nothing and teams should only ever be subject to their results, not popular opinion. Riot's system is inadequate but "the eye test" is a really stupid bandaid that no serious league has ever considered.
TSM not crashing is the kicker here lol
I feel dropping region-dodging has the potential to hurt non-Korean (1,2,3) and non-wild card regions. By having a team in each of the 3 tiers you could theoretically get a draw consisting of TSM, IMT, C9 and LZ. This would be bad for NA fans because it is a guarantee that at least one of their teams will not get out of groups no matter what and it would drop the motivation for EU and Chinese fans to watch these games and NA fans to watch other groups because the outcomes don't influence their own favorites.
If you were to have region dodging and a power ranking styled seeding, you're more or less hand crafting each group. It significantly reduces the number of possibilities of group draws, and can more easily be affected by biased rankings. I think the randomness adds a bit of fairness to the system.
and where is your ranking? You created 2 pools now, but you need 7 for 7 teams. A ranking pls. And that with great explanations why each team is where it is. An explanation that can not be contested by even the slightest argument. It has to be rock solid or it can be called biased.
He might have made fun of TSM last year. But saying he only cares now is a lie. He made a video on the exact same subject more than two years ago.
Yeah this systems is amazing and flawless, thats why you get super close match in quaters between 2 korean teams followed by the winning one stomping rest of games to 0.
If we divided the groups based on these global rankings and even kept region dodging then the result could turn out looking something like this... (I swapped the rankings of LZ with SKT, and WE with RNG)
Group 1: LZ, EDG, FW, FB
Group 2: SKT, G2, IMT, GAM
Group 3: SSG, WE, MSF, C9
Group 4: RNG, TSM, FNC, AHQ
I think devising groups based on global rankings like these would create a far more balanced result than what we currently have. This way each team seems to be given a reasonable position in their group based on global rankings. Each first seed sits comfortably atop the group, the second seed teams are all strong contenders to make it out, the third seeds have a fighting chance, and the fourth seeds are happy to be there. And LZ as the overall highest ranking team looks to be given the easiest group.
Something like this is the way groups should be if they keep the 4x4 format.
C9 put up a solid show in week 2. Bring on week 3!
I disagree here. I hate the TI group format. You play tons of games, which essentially mean nothing at all.
It's difficult. I'd prefer groups of 6 or 8 (either 4x6 or 2x8), groups of 4 are just so few games.
But then look at the biggest tournament in the world. Football world cup. groups of 4, single round robin. you play three games, which determine, whether you advance to the bracket stage.
If we had TI7's format, it would be much better. 2 giant groups doing a round robin against each other and the bottom half of each groups get seeded into the lower bracket.
Power rankings are just kind of dumb and too based on opinion. You can't possibly use that as reference for seeding in groups, its just stupid. Playing against NA teams =/= playing against KR teams.
If we followed the "power rankings" last year TSM wouldve been 4th, and they weren't even close to being top4.
The issue going with this system is that overrated team get an easy group while underrated team get an harder group than they should have. In your exemple group c have better team from every pool than group d.
If G2 finished first of their group, people wouldn't even have this debate lol
It all comes down to whether you value a more accurate ranking of the competition, or a more intense/exciting viewing experience for the fans. Single elim gives every match a sense of finality that you don't get with double elim. And at the end of the day, the strongest team does prevail regardless.
Personally, I watch LoL to be entertained, so I'm fine with single elimination, even if it means certain strong teams get knocked out earlier.
Probably forgot on the spot that FW is pool 1 seed and not TSM. Point remains, they're both worse than the Korean teams. In fact using TSM as an example only weakens his point, as FW are quite a lot worse than them.
He's done this one before though.
if u only count the groups sure... but theres nothing exciting to having worse teams move on and then get smashed 3:0 in the bo5s
Yeah, people suggesting that are hysterical. There were literally riots in the streets of reddit because Phreak had the audacity to say that Doublelift (who was having a mediocre year at that point in time) was having a mediocre year. The very instant you see 'Phreak (or Jatt or whomever you think is an expert) thinks TSM is better than KR #3' we're going to be right back to people arguing over a new system.
"It's actually better to get the number 1 KR seed if you're gonna get KR anyway, cos then they beat everyone."
I prefer SSG to LZ, thanks.
Yeah, there is literally nothing more clutch than being able to win through the loser's bracket.
People had this discussion last time TSM got screwed.
A higher seed should always have an easier path than a lower seed.
G2 should never under any circumstances wish that they could trade places with FNC, but they probably would have in a second.
TSM should never under any circumstances wish that they could trade places with C9 or IMT, but again, they probably would have in a second.
Higher seed should always mean easier group.
It's league you can expect to win every game no matter how good you are, just like any sports upsets happen. Double elim stops those upsets from ruining the whole tournament by making the rest of the bracket shit
I see, the goal here though seems to be towards balance within each group itself. At least each team belongs fairly within their seeded position of their respective group. The first seeds are clear favourites, and the second seeds all go the 5-8th ranked teams, and so on. At least this way there couldn't be a group with SSG, RNG, and G2/TSM together (all top 8 teams), and another one with IMT, FNC, and GAM (all bottom 7).
It is at least a lot more balanced than the current system.
In your mind TL is not clutch.
Can happen at any point. You're not guaranteed to get super close matches between Korean teams (see: S4 semis, S5 finals) either.
Well G2 had a really close game 1 loss and beat them game 2, so I wouldn't be surprised if TSM could do the same (if TSM doesn't crash like IMT that is).
With actual seeding like ranking teams 1-16, it would be impossible for any Korean teams to meet because they're all so close together
Don't project your own values onto others, you care only about which team is No 1, not me. I still want to know if H2K or RNG is better last year.
Also, there are a lot of tournaments that got decided by the bracket.
Pretty much, excuses need to be made. Their team isn't bad, they just need certain conditions to be met.
I get triggered by people calling the system bullshit. Is it perfect? No, but the alternatives generally don't seem to be better.
I have no problems with ranking teams by having cross-bracket play. I just don't think that once a team loses a Bo5 they deserve a second chance to win the tournament. By all means play out a loser's bracket to decide second place (and even third, fourth, etc if you want), just don't give them a second shot at the winners.
His system would be shit. Not because it creates worse grps. Grps would be similar and each year we would have the exact same discussion about if the seedings were fair.
But it would be shit because it can be attacked. It can be questioned. An opinion of experts that decide on seeding is easy to question. Teams can use their analysts and say that they deserve a better seed. Now it comes down to opinions. And if Riot shuts the discussion out and says that their experts are absolute the fans can go on the barricades.
It would be a mess. Opinions could be questioned, corruption could play a role, mistakes can happen and people can be blamed for these mistakes. And that is what you definitely want to avoid.
You want to create a system that has the least possible amount of human involvement. It gets created by humans but then should run by itself. That is what other sports and esports do for a reason. When fans know that things are maybe unfair but nobody manipulated. they can complain but they won't lynch a person for it.
I really like how Valve does seeding for The International. Two groups of 9 teams each and they all play a 2-game match. These matches then define their seeding going into the main event.
Top 4 go into the upper bracket
Next 4 go into the lower bracket
Last place eliminated.
This system gets around the difficulty of ranking teams ahead of time (even though with LoL all three Korean teams would be at the top, most likely followed this year by RNG at 4th).
So rather than having a play-in period, Riot could just host a much larger group stage period before the main event
Maybe have a limit of at most 2 same region teams? Problem with region dodging and. Power ranking combined means that there just isn't that much rng in the groups. Which means that the power rankings control the groups MUCH more, and will in turn draw criticism to the seeding system for being too biased
Not only he thinks TSM is a pool 1 team (which shows how unprepared he is on the matter), but he also manages to say RNG is the 2nd seed from Korea, for god's sake. Thorin's thoughts are rotten, and he only sees the reflection of his ego.
Double elimination in the first place does not work for grp anyways. But your system does allow for a second chance. The problem is it only allows for a second chance IF you are #3 seeded and it takes away from the achievement a #2 seed had. So why does the #3 seed get a second chance but not the #4 seed? Because you decided to, nothing else.
So you did not stop reading because of that, but probably because you hate how G2 didn't make it out. If G2 would have been #4 seed you would come up with a system that allows them to have another shot. You want to blame the system when G2 lost due to not being good enough.
The issues as I see them are no suitable ranking system going into worlds based off the regional separation and low number of group games leading to high variance.
The ranking is hard to do without being extreme provided that Riot doesn't do more international events. Is it better or worse to say that Korea got number 1 at MSI so all three of its teams deserve top seeds? Europe second so its teams are next. Top 4 would be SKT, LZ, SSG and G2. That might not be far off but deeper down we'd see that FNC were higher than TSM and perhaps more drastic would be that ALL of the LMS teams would be seen as higher than TSM. Without some system that creates a seeding then the groups will be screwed anyway. Also what happens if a superteam forms in the summer season and wins the summer split. They would have no previous results so would they have a low seed or would you say they were the best in their regions so are better.
High variance. The relatively low number of map wins required to get out of groups means that upsets are likely. Exciting for the neutral, painful for the purest. The potential of messed up groups only compounds this. Variance can be decreased by a larger number of games. Bo3 or a larger group.
I also see the way the groups feed into the bracket as another issue where the best teams can all be lumped on one side of the bracket.
My solution would be to remove play-ins and have far more teams at worlds with much larger groups. Keep Bo1 but with larger groups or lots more smaller groups there would be more games. With larger groups and more games the top should rise. After the poule stage the ranking should be redrawn taking first win percentage, then maybe game time or some other metric. This should give a ranking from top to bottom. Take the top16 teams from that and use that as a bracket. A repechage would be nice but it would drag on my already bloated system, it would however give slightly more protection against a bad draw. Taking a larger bracket gives a chance for teams like G2 who claim to be bo5 teams a chance provided they made the enlarged bracket but they would have to prove it early since if they don't do great in their group they would get a high seed. They have a real chance but they would be against a favourite.
Dota 2's top 4 would have been all Chinese in single elimination, but it instead became TL winning the whole thing - imo that's a huge sign that Double Elimination should be looked at
Literally defended TSM on the SI episode, but lets keep peddling the narrative thorin hates actually anything and everything to do with tsm.