It’s almost like that’s EXACTLY the implication

It’s almost like that’s EXACTLY the implication

No idea who says stuff like that but it's free in germany and it's far from worthless over here.

The people who say these things are the people brought to power by the uneducated.

By this logic, a K-12 education would also be considered "worthless."

(And can we please stop calling it "free" college? It would be no freer than current "free" mandatory public education which is funded through taxes and redistribution).

Over 3/4 of American soldiers cite free college as the reason they join the army. Wonder how many soldiers there would be if post-secondary school was free 🤔

Also generic middle class bourgies.

I wish liberals (in America) had the spine to admit that, yeah, it isn't free, and, yeah, we're making the rich pay for it.

Edit: I kind of feel like y'all aren't getting what I mean. I'm saying that the (supposed) left needs to stop being apologetic about the redistribution of wealth. It was stolen by the rich in the first place, and we shouldn't have qualms about taking it back.

I think this ideology just goes to show how shittily we value education as an institution in the US.

Seems like college classes are just a means to a degree, and a degree is just a means to a job. It's all geared toward the workforce.

The knowledge itself is valuable, even without the degree.

Hell, if college tuition were affordable, I might actually take post-grad classes for fun.

but if they parrot their favourite politicians enough, theyll definitely achieve the same wealth and status!! /s

Not this one, but I'm out for almost a decade now. Would I join again risking getting blown up if I didn't get free college? HELL NO.

We already learned the hard way the VA benefits that were promised are a joke. Federal hiring benefits only work when the federal workforce isn't being gutted. Free (Getting paid to go) college is the only one that actually helps.

Americans, man. I know a guy who believes that if a person could make a livable minimum wage working at McDonald's, then "why would anyone want to become a doctor?". This was in response to a push to adjust the minimum wage with inflation, when it had been virtually stagnant for decades.

He holds a degree in economics.

I wish the conservatives (in America) would admit they need the masses to be undereducated to achieve the mass greed feeding frenzy that will finally make them happy.

The problem is that they have to first convince the general public of a more fundamental truth; That the rich are not philanthropists. They are businessmen. And business is not a charity.

A large part of the country seriously bought into the idea of trickle-down, and they now believe that redistribution of wealth will inadvertently hurt their wages, because less will be "trickling down".

The even deeper underlying issue, though, is a fundamental misunderstanding of where wealth originates from. Wealth truly originates from labor and creation. But because those are abstract, people often instead attribute wealth's origin to the dollar itself, simply because it is the tangible representation of that wealth.

And when you make that mistake, you attribute the wealthy as "providing wealth" when they spend their money. In reality, spending money is accumulating wealth; you trade away the abstract representation of value for something of actual value.

Petit bourgeois, is what I think they mean

It would probably be cheaper just to move to a foreign country that offers free college rather than stack up loan debt. You'd also get to experience another country and culture.

I had a grad student once explicitly say to me that college can't be free because then it wouldn't be "special". They don't have the language of class, but they sure like having people who are lower class than them.

I have friends in STEM that are already applying to international universities for these exact reasons. Especially with the proposed tax hikes on grad students, the brain drain that this country is about to see is going to be sad.

This is probably also the reason that there is such a hard push back on raising the minimum wage. I used to be pissed about it when I was younger because I had worked hard to be making more than minimum wage. I made ten dollars an hour because I had done more and it wasn't fair that other people would just get to make more.

Then I started making around 15 dollars an hour and realized I was a dick for thinking that other people shouldn't get to life a less money stressed life just because then I wouldn't be making more than them.

So many issues in life stem from people basing their self worth on how much money they make/how much schooling they have/their political party.

I mean you could definitely make a livable wage at Mcdonalds if you're the boss or if you live in a very low cost of living area with several room mates and never got sick or went to the doctor and also you rode a bike to work and it never snowed so that was a viable option.

Easy right?

You highlight one of Trump's many paradoxical lies that always bothers me: he claims to care about Vets while simultaneously reducing the federal workforce. The government should be supporting veterans' preference jobs either directly or indirectly (through tax subsidies in private industry), particularly if the military wants to advertise itself as a training ground for future employment.

That's my biggest annoyance with the conservative viewpoint.

They do not believe in the concept of wealth extraction, even though it's everywhere in modern America. They only believe in wealth "creation." The left is so neutralized that they can't provide the extraction counter narrative.

It's an absurdity to think that immigrant laborers who do the jobs that no one wants for abysmal wages are the "takers" and the owners are the "makers."

In medieval Europe, would anyone consider the lords the makers and the serfs the takers? Clearly, the lords were just extracting wealth.

But here the people who do the worst work and get paid the least are somehow a strain on the system. What nonsense.

My moms only argument to free education.

In Germany the trend goes towards private schools and universities. Especially for less successful High School students because they cannot get into public universities with a Numerus Clausus.

Further Germany has one of the highest differences between students from a low or high class background regarding grades, job perspectives and overall success.

And lastly, our education system is solely made to produce functioning workers that fit into the economic system.

Whether that is good or bad obviously depends on the point of view.

middle class


Pick one

It is a class gateway. And if it was entirely free, we'd just have a new class gateway.

Probably having a degree that's accredited not by a review board but sponsored by your desired future employer.

You have to get in

this is america son. free to lie, free to be lied to, free to believe those lies. you c'n ged out

I have a really deep interest in mechanical and electrical systems, would prefer to be a mechanic or in maintenance as opposed to actually operating factory machines for someone's profit. However I only have the slightest bit of professional experience in the trade. The one year program cheapest and nearest to me is about $12,000, assuming I can complete it on time (the school i know is known for fucking people over to get another semester out of them.)

I'm getting near middle aged and don't even know if that is worth doing. The unions are prohibitively far away and cost an arm and a leg just to join ($500 and your own tools just for initial membership, no guarantees of work whatsoever, sketchy per diem based on the contractor and distance from the local.) My biggest fear is going through with doing the schooling only to find out no one will take the certification seriously and I'll be stuck doing the same monotonous bullshit I've been doing since I became an adult.

And for the record, if college had been more affordable, I would've went on to pursue a masters in psychology and philosophy most likely. However I was deeply in debt just from getting an AA. Would not do it again if I knew what I know now.

If you serve in the military then you actually get paid to go to college (in the U.S.). So basically if you're willing to subject yourself to at least 4 years of brainwashing/indoctrination and risk your life. Only then do you earn the right to education.

Education is free in Sweden (and several other countries) and it has not become useless. Case closed.

Terminology aside, most small businesses in the US fail in the first couple years. But for terminology:

bourgeoisie: capitalist class, income is derived from ownership and investment and not from labor.

petit bourgois: on the edge of the capitalist class, these people may own and invest but generally also work alongside their employees. This is where most small businesses and small-business owners operate.

If your mother does not have a job and makes a living entirely off of collecting a check and making further investments elsewhere then she is both middle class and bourgeois, but that's rare. If she contributes labor to the small business that she is part-owner of, then she's petit bourgeois.

I was a manager at McDonald's, ended up getting a better paying job as a cashier in retail. Doesn't make any sense.

I agree. I think I came off as a conservative when I'm not in the slightest.

Just because something is difficult to explain doesnt mean that it is irrelevant to the discussion.

Most likely; it is possible to be both bourgeois and middle class (where middle class is derived from individual or family income), but it's hardly the norm for either middle class to be bourgeois or for bourgeois to be middle class.

Yes. I worked for a company that paid a limited amount (minimum wage) for travel expenses that was a frequent part of the job and a sizable chunk of the overall pay.

When minimum wage went up, people would say "this is bullshit! I only make $2 more than a gas station attendant now!"

No, you fool... you make exactly the same as a gas station attendant every time you travel. YOU just got a raise.

I was lucky enough to be hired right before the freeze, but even now my chances at career progression are dwindling.

Man there are a shitload of small businesses in America that are owned by middle class owners. I'm from a family that's middle class and my mom is a part owner of a small business. I'm not gonna make the claim that it's common, but I think you'd be surprised at the number of small-time business owners who are middle class.

What's weird is that this is never cited as being unpatriotic. Education benefits cost way more than transgender hormone treatment or gender reassignment surgery. But ppl that join for the college money are never accused of taking advantage of the system.

That seems uncomfortably plausible.

Germany has one of the highest differences between students from a low or high class background regarding grades, job perspectives and overall success.

Could you please elaborate on that?

FREE libraries, FREE policing, FREE firefighters and FREE roads. Damn socialists /s

Germans are sorted from an early age in the school system. It boils down to "college track" wherein you go to a good school (gymnasium) and prepare for university, or a blue-collar-high-school where you prepare for trades.

People think "free college in Germany" but as with everything in life, it's more complicated than that.

And there’s nothing fundamentally wrong with that. It’s not great in that your income still depends in part on paying people less than they generate in value, but you were born to a capitalist society. You’re playing a role in a society and your values, the avenues you see for progress and growth, and so on are all influenced by that.

Lol, anytime you bring up genuine critiques of Democrats someone gotta come in and say "Well, Republicans are worst actually, they can only do so much!!!" like some sort of shield that keeps them for being the blame for anything. Democrats deserve their critiques as well.

And being able to get in, usually means you want to get in. Some people are content with not going to college, or the line of work they want to get into means they don't have to go to college. Same with people going to grad school in the US. If grad school was free and college was free, I don't think many more students will be going to grad school, as going to grad school isn't a step in an average student's goals.

Having a major downturn in the US Postal Service has really hurt--they were a huge employer of vets for decades.

Everything military is pretty much considered sacred here, so it's like the whole "they earned it" kind of mentality. In some respects, sure, maybe it was earned, but why is education a privilege in the first place?

Having attended a semester in Germany for exchange, the dropout rate after first year was 60%. That shit is rough. They are not afraid to cut you from the program.

Not to mention how many would site free healthcare. If both these are taken away one wonders how many would actually be willing to fight the bankers wars

They'll come back after grad school though. Look at the brain drain of Canadian STEM graduates to the US. The private industry in the US is so lucrative compared to anywhere else. There's a reason people want to come to America.

So basically, i'd be resentful because people would receive something that I didn't.

Except you're not being resentful where it matters, you're being resentful against people who are basically of your class. Real resentment should be reserved for people you can't name because they're so rich and so far behind so many corporate curtains that they might as well be invisible.

By this logic, a K-12 education would also be considered "worthless."

That's the way a lot of us Americans treat public education though :(

A lot of Americans/Canadians travel to my university in Ireland to save money on their education.

Irish citizens pay €3000 a year if they don't get income-contingent state grants. I think international students pay up to €20000, and still save money compared to the US/Canada.

What's the average amount of debt you'd get into for getting a university education in America? How much would it cost you a month paying it off? Our current prime minister (or Taoiseach in Irish) is fairly centre-right (think he'd be similar to Trudeau in that regard) and wants to bring in €5000 a year student loans (paid back after university) to replace the current €3000 fee. This is vehemently opposed by all student unions and is really seen as just a precursor to creating the same system we see in the US/the UK. Why do people even support the creation of such a system? The middle class here, who I imagine they want to support this idea, are already seriously struggling with inflated rent prices, the addition of student debt will only worsen this.

At times it seems like the right are only supportive of such measures as there's some pseudo-intellectual aura of "fiscal responsibility" around these ideas. Can they not see through this and realise this is only going to benefit the very wealthy in society, and isn't being done with the State's, or the people's, finances in mind?

Johnny knows whats up

Til I'm petit bourgeois

That is a really wonderful way to describe it.

It's the same people paying for it, only you do so with your tax dollars instead of a student loan. That means reduced upfront risk, which makes people more bold and willing to try for greater successes.

The counter argument would be "But what about people that are successful without college?". The answer to that being, "You benefit from living in an educated society, whether or not you personally take advantage of the education". More doctors means cheaper healthcare and shorter wait times for procedures, for example.

I don't think you came off as a conservative, I think you came off as someone who is unfamiliar with the political discourse in America. What you said "you wish..." is exactly what progressives in America have been saying since the concept started gaining traction during the Democratic primary process.

Everyone acknowledges that there is a cost to education, the question has always been about who should have to pay the bill.

Doesn't Germany have more trade programs too?

Maybe it's smarter over there because you're not trying to shoehorn everyone towards a traditional liberal arts education.

It's funny how people call liberal art degrees useless. The point of liberal arts programs is to give you the background knowledge to understand whole fields of inquiry and human thought.

If you do not plan on pursuing that after college and never read again, then yes, it is useless. The point isn't to prepare you for employment, but to prepare you for a life of the mind. If you don't value that, why get it in the first place?

The real question is should you make poor people risk their lives for 4 years for their ability to afford going to college?

$23,000/year isn't very cheap and you can go to a top tier State school in the US for the same price. Not to mention you wouldn't get any kind of government subsidies, grants, or loan benefits if you went to school in a foreign country. Finally, a degree from Penn State or Rutgers is going to look way better to an American employer than some Irish university.

So you're spending more money and your degree is less valuable when you go to school in a foreign country, at least with this 20,000 euro Irish example.

Now I am not saying for one minute that college prices in the US are good. They are horrible and it's a scam. But you're not beating the system at all by going to school in a foreign country.

It starts in high school, which is actually divided into three different schools, depending on performance and grades in elementary school. Only graduating from the top level school grants you access to university (there are ways to get in from the lower level schools as well, though they take a few additional years and hard work). Problem is that kids with a difficult socioecological background usually don't get the same kind of support from their parents as more wealthy kids do, and therefore don't do well enough in school to ever make it. So even though college is free, poor people are still more likely not to get in (also there's cost of living, which can be pretty high in the cities that have a university).

I totally agree. I'm a college professor and we are constantly pushing back against the idea that we are here to train compliant workers.

For example, businesses come into the college and offer $ in exchange for classes or degrees that train workers for their particular field. On the surface, this isn't a problem--its money for the college and people need careers. The problem is that these businesses pressure the college to fast-track the degree, strip out liberal arts classes, pair the degree to their company and not the field, etc--making the degree too narrow and practically worthless for anything BUT working for that company. And this is only one example of the ways that businesses try to undercut liberal arts and critical thinking education.

You're ignoring the fact that college costs time and effort even if it doesn't cost money. Not everyone is going to get a college degree just because they wouldn't charge for it. If that were the case, there'd be 100% high school graduation, which there isn't.

I'm a stem student from UK, would probably move to the US if you didn't have terrible healthcare options and a madman for a president.

The thing that bothers me is if you have the grades to go to school, you can go. Money won’t stop you if you put in the work. There’s grants, loans etc to get you everything you need. It’s just not given on a platter, you have to perform.

Edit: Downvotes by people who never looked into it? I got laid off and am literally being urged to go back to school by Iowa workforce for almost pennies on the dollar. On top of schooling they are pushing to get me into a paid apprenticeship where they also pay the employer for taking me on. They’ve even offered to help pay for daycare for when I’m going to school.

Edit: I was banned and can not reply to any newer comments. I gave twenty some additional info in message though.

"I love the poorly educated." -Donald Trump


the middle class, typically with reference to its perceived materialistic values or conventional attitudes

The meaning of both terms in common speech has evolved away from it, I suppose, but originally they weren't really different. [edit: phrasing]

They terk er jerbs!

Well that's because they are worse, by a lot, and are the ruling party right now, so they deservedly need to get more flak. It shouldn't shut down discussions like yours obviously, but that's why you get that response.

Just stop eating Avocados then you'll have enough money for a house in no time.

People call liberal art degrees useless because college is an investment to most people and there needs to be some sort of return in order for it to mean anything. If you value having a life of the mind at tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt then all the power to you, but many people feel that it is an unwise investment.

I know, it’s always been fuck other generations. They don’t see the value in long term investment. Which I why I’ve dubbed them the Day Trader generation.

It's funny because it also assumes that absolutely everyone who goes to college doesn't drop out of their degree one way or another regardless of how they pay for school. The whole point of college is to gain the skills and abilities you can't otherwise, but IMO if you're incapable to effectively use those skills then it shouldn't financially cripple you, but rather let you have a second chance to find something you're better at so you can contribute back tp society.

Well said. There are two basic economic theories that inform the conservative economic ideology that I believe are deeply flawed.

The first is the concept of "trickle down" wealth distribution. You explained that well, but in essence it's the idea that business owners should be given economic incentives because they will use additional funds to hire more employees, pay employees better, produce more products, etc.

The second theory is the concept that private enterprises are inherently "better" (usually defined by financial efficiency) at addressing public needs than a government institution would be. This idea is flawed in a few ways. For one, private organizations are not necessarily more efficient at addressing public needs. There are, of course, cases where private companies can provide a service cheaper than the government can, but there are also cases where a government is more efficient. There is also the issue of security and conflicts of interest when for-profit organizations are hired to provide a service. But for me the biggest concern with this concept is the idea that the lowest cost provider is always best. Private contractors are in essence compelled to cut corners in order to provide a base level of service to meet established minimum standards. That may be fine for some things, but in regard to education, healthcare, and prisons, for example, I think this concept could do tremendous damage to society.

germany has a very fucked up multi tier school system which is pretty fucken classist and going up in it isn't easy, unless your parents give a shit about you.

source: went from hauptschule to gymnasium

Well educated people are even better at being mindless consumers.

See: the entire upper middle class. You have doctors, lawyers and engineers managing to live paycheck to paycheck on $300k/yr.

What would that be?

I would point out that middle class used to mean that you really have to 'own' stuff.

For example, a doctor would have been middle-class, and owned some land. Middle (these days) has come to sort of mystically mean "the middle 50% of the income range" or something like that - when that's nonsense.

Most of us are lower class, not middle class.

Well, I can only speak for myself.

although my income is far above average, I am certainly not middle class.

I guess my law degree from a Scandinavian university is worthless. That sucks.

I was under the impression that it would cause a degree value inflation.

But for real though, paying thousands of dollars for someone to read a PowerPoint of stuff I could have googled is the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals since forever.

It would end up being the people who get the education paying for it. You get a degree, earn more money, pay more taxes. So really, they are paying for it after the fact.

The idea is to make college available to anyone who wants to further themselves. Then those with poor socioeconomic status but are still able to get through can without crippling debt.

Then, hopefully, then use this to get more wealth and education, thus ending the cycle of poverty in the family.

Sweeping improvement to education and socioeconomic status doesn't happen overnight and often the issue has to be addressed across generations.

Sorry I only fw urbandictionary definitions

Don't forget all that FREE military protection, FREE courts and judges, FREE treasury system, FREE space exploration, etc.

Last ditch effort? The problem is that for large segments of the population, relying on loans seems to be the expected way to pay for college. Loans are fine occasionally, when one needs the money and is confident they can pay it back later - but if it becomes the normal way to pay for college, then clearly something is wrong.

Because it exists and is identifiable? We draw conclusions from shit we don't understand all the time.

'Free' means and always had meant 'free at the point of use'. So no, calling it 'free college' is accurate.

We’re all in it together. I earn more than my parents but hey were able to buy a house and multiple cars. I live in a studio apartment an hour from where I work

There is no paradox to trumps lies. He simply panders to whomever he's scamming at the moment. Whatever action he takes will be to feed his desires and prejudices.

This makes sense. I'm 30 and I fall into middle class income and I sure as shit don't feel like it. Either my parents were upper class or the goal post moved to make people feel better about their lot in life.

I hear you. I guess the subtext to my post is that the system is designed to make you hate you equal and those below you instead of those over you. Those emotions are played upon in capitalism.

Which is its own form of a “class gateway” considering that GPA and high school graduation rates vary considerably depending on socioeconomic status despite universal access to free K-12 type of education in much of the modern world.

Grad school and above?

They said bourgie, not bourgeois or bourgeoisie. Although the one came from the other, "bourgie" is slang. According to google (and at least in my region this is an accurate definition):

exhibiting qualities attributed to the middle class, especially pretentiousness or conventionality.

Which also very aptly fits the OP circumstance.

Could you please elaborate on that?

The thing is, it's kinda too complex to "elaborate" on it. You can start your own research here:

You guys always tout that bullshit but is it ever actually based in reality? You do realize not everyone who goes to college has pursues some obscure degree. And even the ones that do, education is always beneficial, knowledge is power. What's wrong with empowering the common man?

For an undergraduate degree, there is no way you’d pay $20,000 a year in Canada — that’s actually what international students pay. It’s closer to $7000/year in most of Canada, 3000$/year in Quebec.

I do hear about Canadians going to school in Ireland for med school, but cost isn’t the issue. Yearly tuition at UBC, for instance, is just over 20,000$ CAD each year for most years:

Compared to 20,000 euros, which is around 30,000$CAD.

Canadians mostly wind up in Ireland because they couldn’t get into the Canadian programs.

I’m not trying to say that Canada’s system doesn’t have massive problems... it’s just that the US system is so egregiously terrible that being lumped in with them really stings.

No one thinks "free college" means we're going to magically delete all the costs associated with running a school. Literally Everyone understands that it will still cost money.

We do need to discuss sources of that money, but people not doing that isn't because they think the money will just appear, it's because they already understand and disagree with the idea of tax-subsidized higher education.

The only thing that muddies the debate is people like you arguing semantics.

Bad argument. A sports car and access to education are not comparable. A sports car is a tangible good; education is not. A sports car is not treated as a prerequisite for economic success in our economy, while a college education is. Your argument might hold up better if the OP was talking specifically about prestige universities, but it isn't.

Why would the quality go down? Is there a finite amount of information and knowledge?

The exact opposite