G2 and TSM looked dominant in the LCS but we realise that the lack of Internationnal events make us think that way.

G2 and TSM looked dominant in the LCS but we realise that the lack of Internationnal events make us think that way.

I know its been mentionned often on this sub: To have more Internationnal events.

After this Worlds, I think it's really needed. We get fooled and think NA/EU are strong regions...

EDIT: The point of this thread is not to make excuses but to point the EU/NA casters that keep hyping Western teams but most of them dissapoint. With more Internationnal tournaments during the year we would be better at analyzing the strength of a region and not over hype anyone.

this segment of Summoning Insight.

Ignore the Korean bootcamp thing. That's not the issue. It's how they scrim.

In the latest Summoning Insight, Thorin mentions something that he talked with Locodoco a long time ago regarding TSM's scrimmage habits (which is maybe therefore indicative of the rest of NA's habits). When they scrimmage, they play exactly like they do on the main stage and scrim to win. They aren't practicing specific things at a time, trying to improve one aspect of play or learn, they are trying to win scrims. That's the reason we always hear NA teams say, "Well we've been doing really well in scrims so we're pretty confident," and when they lose, "We thought we would do a lot better this year because we've been winning all our scrims against the Koreans," and the like. Because they're practicing to win instead of practicing to improve. Key distinction.

Monte was saying that if you practice one aspect, his example is dragon control, and you get all of the dragons but still lose the scrim, then really you've still actually won because you accomplished what you set out to do. Even Zirene was able to make input regarding this when he got to sit in on someone's practice and the coach said, "Okay, today all of you are going to try to solo kill your lane opponents." He said it was the weirdest scrim he's ever seen with people playing retarded aggressive, blowing flash like it's nothing, tower diving like the Chinese teams, but in the end knows they probably came away with something. "Okay, so now I know that I can't try that in this champ matchup," or "I need this prerequisite to get a solo kill on this champion," and the like.

A long time ago, I made a comment on this sub about how sandbox mode would be like shadow training. You practice one aspect of your training at a time. No one practices baseball by playing 9 innings of baseball. But that's what NA teams do. They just play 9 innings of baseball and think that it'll make them better than if they used batting cages, ran drills, and isolated their training objectives during scrims. It's not how hard you train, it's how smart you train.

edit: for those who want more context and to form your own opinions of given information, please watch This is where I got the info from and basically none of what I said was articulated on my own, much of it copied straight from here. Give Monte, Thorin, and Zirene the credit they deserve.

edit 2: fuck you, don't give me gold, (although interestingly enough my last gold literally expired today), go watch the video and give those guys your scrilla.

Honestly people keep blaming it on outside factors (previously one main argument was that the Bo1 LCS format doesnt give as much practice as the LCK teams have going into Worlds) but fact of the matter is that Koreans practice way more and way more efficiently (for the more efficiently part you can also look the latest SI, they explore that subject). TSM did the Korean schedule for a single split and they curbstomped the domestic competition

As for the rest? Everyone beats everyone for the most part.

Moreover, I do believe that if TSM were in any other group they would have gotten out of groups. It's a really unfortunate situation for them, but hey, groups are groups, and they couldn't get out.

During the split I was so impressed by C9 Impact. I was honestly shocked when he got shat on 3 times in a row by Cuvee.

Reminds of S5 FNC when Huni looked really good until he met Smeb in the semis and got an education in the top lane

They did play well, compared to C9, who played like clowns in a group with two more clowns

Anyone who says the culture and environment is not the cause for the results we are subject to each year is living with their head in the sand.

(EDIT: I dont' want to discuss how TSM maybe was or was not partying. If they weren't then fine I'm wrong~ move on to what this post was actually about! Differences in culture.)

Look at Fnatic last year. The best coach in the west (Or one of the top three) was ousted by his org because a player complained about the rigor of training and constrictions on lifestyle. There may have been other factors but the fact remained that Delior was considered 'too' strict by our community and some players.

Look at TL and Dardoch. In Korea if a player spoke about their coach like Dardoch did they would quickly find themselves without a team and likely moving to China. Immediately. Instead here in the west we find excuses for his behavior and try to find a way to blame Loco (again apparently too strict) while looking to just move Dardoch to another NA team.

Look at OG. This organization thought they could succeed without a strong coach or training and it destroyed them from the inside out. I doubt very much that OG had a psychologist in staff which could have kept Godgiven around. A complete lack of coaching on a team is such a foreign thought to Korea they wouldn't even understand the idea.

Look at Huni and IMT. You have a player known for tilting and not playing meta because he tells his coach what he's going to play. A proper coach would have made that a non-issue and maybe IMT beat SSG (Too soon?).

I could go on, but I think that's enough. The solo queue issue is something else entirely that I think plays a large part in what we're apparently calling 'the gap'. The fact that NA competitive solo queue has been a joke since season 2 or 3 is a joke. Does anyone remember the last time it was relevant? I remember HotshotGG used to battle the best players for the coveted #1 spot. Still many peoples favorite stream to this day. Now? Other countries laugh at us because you can be #1 and not even get a pro tryout because that's how much of a joke it is.

Until organizations hire strong coaches that are able to control their players and force an increase in commitment nothing will change. It will be years until old mentality players retire and new ones are brought up with a different mindset. The best players we have in NA (TSM) are partying before worlds matches. If that isn't enough to convince you we have a culture level issue then keep breathing the sand your head is stuck in.


What the fuck this is the best explanation I've read about how godly scrim teams just don't win on stage.

Normally I thought it was hiding strats or showing too much, this makes more sense.

Scarra said something to this effect on BTR:

Every NA team went 3-3, C9 just happened to move on with that score.

Tbf, Smeb was on a league of his own.

I think most people would agree that RNG, TSM and SSG are all good enough to make it to quarter finals, but someone had to lose. I don't get too upset about where each regions team's ended up.

Typically an NA or EU team will make as far as they can until they get smashed by Koreans. I'm happy that TSM went 1-1 with SSG and CLG went 1-1 with ROX. Wish they could have done better, but w/e.

Group stages are very fun, but as soon as we get to the bracket stage I expect rampant 3-0's until we get to see the Koreans slug it out for the world championship.

KR doesn't need to extra international events to not be garbage

Showing too much is another thing about it though. If TSM is playing exactly how they want to on stage, that means they are giving full information to their scrim opponents. "Oh, this is how they are going to play for real, take notes so we know exactly how to beat them."

Besides that, there is some element of hiding things. In the same segment, I'll just quote Monte.

"So at IEM Katowice, the one that they won, I was watching them scrim against the Tigers at that time. And I walked up and I saw Hojin playing Nidalee. Now, Hojin has zero professional game time Nidalee prior to that point and I literally- I had never even seen him play Nidalee in solo queue okay? and I asked him, 'Hojin,' I said, 'Have you ever even played Nidalee before?' And he said, 'No.' And he was scrimming it against TSM. And I watched, I was looking at TSM's picks in the scrim, it was literally exactly what they were gonna play! In the tournament!"

And that should sum up everything you need to know about how Koreans scrim vs. NA.

The quality of practise seems to never get mentioned, TSM practised alot this year... but if they only get 3 weeks in korea against good opposition the other 40 weeks of na practise pale in comparison.

TSM looked pretty strong tbh. I think people are fixating on them not getting out of groups despite the fact that group stage is completely reliant on who you face. We should be looking at their play which was pretty strong. They only lost one game quickly, every other game was either a win, or pretty damn close. G2 I think was an abysmal performance, TSM just barely didn't make it and still proved they were capable of giving the Koreans a run for their money, in fact they outright obliterated one Korean team.

Both teams are good imo. It's just that G2 chocked and TSM played okay-ish but they couldn't bring their A game at the right time and suffered for it. All you anti-TSM people don't crucify me please lol. Royal and Samsung 100% deserved to get to QF and TSM didn't because they underperformed and couldn't show up when it mattered.

With that said I still think both teams are good and can compete with the best of the best but they need to fix what prevented them from doing it this time. For G2 it's choking and for TSM it's stage jitters, playing to your normal standard on stage and translating scrim results on stage.

I really want mid-tier international event.

For healthy regional ecosystem mid-tier team's skill level is important. If mid-tier teams compete internationally they can have experience and more chance to improve then it can give really positive feed back to region.

Top teams compete each other and learned each other then go back to region and stomp their region with new skills. This doesn't sound like healthy environment.

Thank you. Its wrong to equate G2 and TSM this worlds. Yes, they both underperformed, but G2 took one single game. TSM at least had an even record with another team getting out in their group.

We still had Marin and Ssumday who were just as good imo

New idea. We make Korea get worse by wasting their time playing against us, and we make the gap close by making them worse instead.

That's sadly true, although this has another problem, SKT.

With group C B being a whole clown fiesta the greater team will look sharper, but is it sharp enough?

I honestly think the power level off the Korean teams are closer than ever this year honestly with no clear number one team.

EDIT: But does is it grammar enough

'Have you ever even played Nidalee before?' And he said, 'No.'

ah it's the junglers i get in my ranked games

Smeb shat on Ssumday, personally I think Smeb was the best top laner of S5 worlds. But there's an argument that MaRin was better.

practicing 18 hours a day doesn't help you improve though, the human brain can't stay so attentive to one task for that long. At some point you can stop without losing anything while getting more sleep and living healthier which will have a net gain in the long run as well in terms of improving your play. You also won't become a corpse by the time you're 40

I know C9 didn't play well.. but Samsung looked fantastic yesterday.

The teleport play with CuVee's kennen to set up that 4 for nothing engage into baron powerplay looked World Champion-esque.

We have little information still on the other Korean teams, but ATM Rox looks the most vulnerable.

Here's the thing though, half of the other teams that got out looked genuinely worse than them. It's fine to say that that's how worlds is, but it's also worth acknowledging that they got pretty unlucky. People are just giving them shit because they're TSM and other people hyped them a bunch. Are people forgetting that ROX as well as EDG barely made it out by 1 game each, and for a good portion they were losing those games too! I just think the difference between getting to quarterfinals and not making it wasn't at all clear cut this year, and it illustrated some flaws in the system. Think of how robust qualification for worlds is, but once you're at worlds you get 6 volatile games to try and move on. Of course the results aren't always going to be indicative of who is actually the best. Also they're group was tough, but the truly ironic thing is they were punished for being the number 1 seed out of NA. C9 and CLG both got easier groups, which is pretty silly.

Agree with everything you said until you said TSM was partying before worlds games. Is there any proof of that or is that all based on forgivens tweet? Because them being out late could have easily been something as simple as trying to simulate a normal lcs Saturday where they wake up three hours before a match. Meaning 1 o'clock in this case so staying up later would help you sleep til 1. If there's more evidence though I'd love to hear it.

Impact wasn't even good during the split. He solo killed a couple scrubs in playoffs and got over hyped as fuck.

And contrary to what a lot of people are saying on this subreddit, TSM did have the most difficult group in the group stage by far. I don't even like them that much and even I'll admit that.

Hes talking more about serious gameplay. There is less jerkoffs and bullshit in high tier KR games.

Bless his heart but there would be nobody like Fabby in KR challenger scene being a "gatekeeper" he'd be a random diamond player and that would be that he was/is too inconsistent to maintain the rank.

Another big aspect of KR playing is that you are playing on single digit ping, this is very close to what its like playing in the LCS. The 60+ ping you experience on NA or whatever other region. This is why you see so many more people do amazing shit with Lee Sin on KR servers they have a ping that allows you to pull things off more consistently. Its also why the best Alistar players (before the pulve/headbutt buffer change) were nearly strictly from KR. You can do the same plays at 60+ ping, you just can't do them as consistently as when you are on single digit ping or LAN. \

Being 2x better is clearly hyperbole, but the idea of him practicing in KR being more valuable is not without merit.

TL;DR, people take KR ranked more seriously and they will seriously compete for ladder placements/ranks. Not only this single digit ping gives a better gameplay experience that is also more similar the environment that LCS games are played in.

They did have a high chance of advancing, they just fucked it up. RNG somehow played well ONLY in their two games against TSM, and TSM threw a game against SSG that would have placed them 1st seed. They had a chance to potentially make finals (just needed to beat C9 and H2K/ANX if they had secured first, which they probably could have) but they completely screwed up.

C9 definitely didn't use Impact to his fullest extent during lane swap meta. So when 1v1 lanes became prevalent during playoffs and Impact styled on some NA tops, people thought the import trade for Rush was finally paying off.

The hype wasn't without logic, it just didn't pan out because NA has had historically safe/not amazing top laners anyway.

I'd rather have three splits (winter split), and each split be shorter. At the end of each split there will be an international tournament, which the top two teams from each attend. Then, at the end of summer, there is worlds.

Worlds qualification could either be based off points, winners of each split, or the same as it is now.

That's not the problem. They did this schedule for 1 split. SSG has done it for 2 years.

Mechanically I think Smeb was better, but Marin had the best game knowledge arguably out of any player at worlds. Mata on SSW is the only other one who I can think of who has had such decisive shot calling as Marin did.

TIL going outside is partying. Only two of them are old enough to go to a bar and I don't think Hauntzer and Doublelift were out partying. They were outside, because their match was still 17 hours away or some ridiculous time. They modified their sleep schedule.

They don't need to intentionally feed to get behind /s

Koreans practice way more and way more efficiently

I'm honestly not sure if it is more, per se, but definitely more efficiently. I think there's a degree of "we have to practice this much to be taken seriously" mentality going on. There comes a point where the usefulness of that extra hour of practice becomes borderline pointless. Basically nobody can study intensely for classes 14 hours a day for an extended period of time.

There's also the thing that the west takes scrims less seriously, by either being late, or inefficient picks, while Korean teams show up and take it seriously.

You speak like you know. Can you send me C9's practice schedule?

That's one of the main problem. With the level of talent of their team, TSM would reach SSG level if they had better practice.

Bjergsen said he would be 2 times better if he played only KR soloq

RNG and Samsung didnt look outstanding when groups were drawn. So Hindsight is 20/20.

I still think if TSM was anything special, they would have a high chance advancing.

I've been giving this some thought, and it would be a decent way to make regions stronger while also giving us inter-region competition with teams that are not "the usual suspects" Something like the Europa League to the Worlds' Champions League. It could be a shorter tournament, with less teams, running before Worlds, on the same patch. Based on this year's standings, we could see a tournament featuring:

World Elite (LPL)

Snake (LPL)

KT Rolster (LCK)

Afreeca Freecs (LCK)

Unicorns of Love (LCS EU)

Fnatic/Giants (LCS EU)

Immortals (LCS NA)

Envy/Liquid (LCS NA)

J Team (LMS)

Lyon/DP (IWQ)

10 teams, distributed similarly to Worlds, playing for two weeks. 2 groups of 5 teams each, best two in each group advance, semifinals and finals. Boom. You give increased exposure and practice to lower league teams, an incentive to perform (where it's not just "top 3 or bust").

Good arguments both for and against more international events. It's a big relief for players to not have to travel so much for events, and the stability of a league system with lots of matches is really good.

On the other hand, having more international tournaments like in CS:GO does create a lot more hype and allows us to more accurately judge who is the best team at any given moment. At the moment I would really prefer at least having two big tournaments a year with MSI heading into the trash.

It was suggested that perhaps Riot could host another event for the runner-up-almost-made-worlds teams from each region so they would not have a 5 months of deadtime before Spring 2017.

Cuvee before the tournament was likely top 7ish but he wasn't really mentioned in the same breath as Duke, Smeb or Looper. This tournament though, Cuvee has been arguably the best.

I have played Smash Bros Melee for 2 years and my first year I hardly improved despite playing hours each day. I got 100x better in 3 months by effectively practicing weak aspects of my play.

Effective practice is key.

While I agree, at that point I think it's more about building muscle memory and internalizing things into instinct.

It definitely comes at a huge cost to health though. Apparently it's why a lot of SSG players were having injury issues this year.

SKT shotcalls as a team, the statement that Marin takes as much of a role in shotcalling as Mata did is a complete myth.

While yes, he did contribute to calls, Marin did not make a majority of the calls in S5 SKT.

I still think TSM was properly rated going into the tournament. They just straight up played bad, and unlike they usually do.

On one hand Sneaky streams A LOT compared to the rest of the pro players, so either his team practices without him or they somehow manage to have a decent scrim schedule when Sneaky isn't streaming.

Where did you get the information that TSM was partying before matches?

Not that Meteos is a huge upgrade though

I don't think Meteos is an upgrade at all, huge or small. The biggest argument for Meteos vs Rush is that the difference between the two is smaller than the difference between Balls and Impact.

Except they do practice more, EU plays one bo5 a day while Korea plays 2 or 3

I think TSM would have a good chance at Bo5. TSM beating samsung didn't feel like an upset, especially since they almost beat them again. Imagine that second game they played vs TSM in groups was the first game of the series, do you honestly not feel like TSM would have adapted and played better in a follow up game?

CLG it definitely felt like an upset and I'd agree they'd be significantly less likely to win a Bo5. Same chances as C9 I'd say, they'd need to succeed at almost everything they try and not get caught in a trap, which is unlikely.

Yeah haha, i thought the same thing. Holy shit.

This should be an own post. Not enaugh people will read this!!

This ^

Just take the example of C9 vs SSG.

One of those teams practised ~15h per day and the other one streamed while memeing their way to the semifinals.

C9 should have a lot of credit for achieving quarterfinals. But you cannot expect to be on pair with people who train maybe twice as you do.

If you want to win the whole thing, you have to work really really hard for it, and, at the end, hard work pays off.

Impact did the best he could I'm pretty sure. Samsung as a whole outclassed c9. Like there's no way impact could have known that cuvee would interrupt all of his teleports from across the lane

Starcraft have been like this for years, and when they started make more international events, people started complaining how the koreans were too good so blizzard added region lock.

but solo kills aren't easy in lcs

Tell that to pre-nerfs Frozen Mallet Gnar (which was like 90% or 100% of those solo kills I believe, same with Wunder).

Marin was extremly close to Smeb in season 5 worlds.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. Look at professional sports and the impact coaches have, the decisions they can make, and they have the power to discipline, praise, and grow players. All coaches can do in league is grow and praise that's it. Discipline is a huge part of sports and the Korean teams have figured that out.

Sports Illustrated

please watch this segment of Summoning Insight.

Wow, Thoorin really got me in the part where he goes full reverse logic when talking about western teams talking about how they're doing well in the scrims, but end up not doing well in the official matches, but korean team NEVER play as bad in official matches if compared to when they scrim.

That really made me think that he's right, and it should be a dead give away when westers teams say "we are doing well/winning our scrims vs korean team x" but korean team x ends up performing good.

Just because a team is inconsistent doesnt mean they arent capable of playing amazing games every now and then.

CoreJJ is said to have been practicing 18 hours a day. That kind of schedule is unreal. IIRC even TSM was "only" practicing 12-14 a day.

Monte even said that he talked to SKT players and they said Marin was the shotcaller. The whole SKT team shotcalling thing was just PR.

I always say that "You're only as good as the practice you get."

TSM gets to practice against CLG, C9, and IMT. SKT gets to practice against ROX, KT, and Samsung.

Getting one month of "Korean Bootcamp" isn't enough to make up the difference of Korea getting to "Korean Bootcamp" year round.

How many times are we going to allow choking to be an excuse though?

If you choke when it matters you're not that good of a team. I imagine SSG came in with a lot of pressure on their shoulders and they haven't choked. That shows a good team.

Have you played Legion? Gotta get weekly raid and you WQs in.

And then play soloq on top of that. They don't play other games like at all.

Or maybe it's the other way around, and they just ended up choking. Due to no other events to prove themselves, we'll never know

you wanted to say group B. C is the edg h2k group

Summoning Insight.

Because no one really knew about this new Samsung roster and their strength because they were under dogs coming into the gauntlet.

With getting swept by KTR in the playoff to KTR winning a reverse sweep against SKT and almost winning the whole playoff no one saw Samsung as the favorite coming into the gauntlet, especially not when they are playing with the former Dig ADC who role swapped and performed like a dead chicken in the round robin as a support to be such a force in the gauntlet.

I think Zirene hit the nail on the head. Korean's play really bad in scrims and push all their limits, do the stupidest stuff, and do everything hyper-aggressive so that they know their limits. They don't assume their limits, they literally have tested them. Then they play toeing the line that is their limit in actual matches and can do so reliably because they know exactly what that line is. By playing bad in scrims, they learn way more than playing well, because they are testing almost everything and evolving rather than stagnating or just getting better at playing the exact same things they do in actual games - which will inevitably become irrelevant with the next patch.

Only people who didnt watched LCK thought that NA and EU were stronger. If you keep staring at your garden you wont see whats outside

There's also the thing that the west takes scrims less seriously, by either being late, or inefficient picks, while Korean teams show up and take it seriously.

You clearly didn't watch the latest SI. Where they said exactly the oposite. Westerns tend to take scrims too seriously while Koreans use scrims to practice their worst picks and such. While Westerns give all of their comps in one scrim, Koreans try out new stuff.

He streams after scrims when he's playing solo Q.

i don't know about G2 but I feel like TSM underperformed

It kinda sounds bad when you host a tournament with 4th to 6th place teams though haha. You make it sound as though a team cannot improve while not attending international tournaments. Samsung was a mid tier team that improved throughout the regular season. Obviously itd be helpful but not needed to improve

Which is complete nonsense, as the disparity between Korean and other teams is about 10% individual skill and 90% macrogame and teamplay.

Worked for Starcraft.


IIRC TSM was outside at 4 am because they had a different sleep schedule. Who says that they were partying?

They looked good for sure, but I felt both junglers were a little inactive early - it felt more due to simple lane skill gap than quality macro from SSG

its not only about the results, its the overall image

I mean when you say it like that that actually sounds pretty obvious. Bottom-tier NA can't close when ahead, TSM can't survive when behind. I'm honestly shocked that such a practice wouldn't have occurred to whichever coach handles the scrims?

Rewatch RNG vs Splyce. That was a pretty convicing Uzi show.

Yeah exactly. TSM showed up to some degree and showed their ceiling (vs SSG). G2 just shit the bed as hard as it gets.

It was a dissapointment having in mind they were Top4 in most power rankings, plus it was the strongest team to ever come out of NA. I agree their group was tough but thats just how worlds works when you are big organisation with so many participations, if you wanna be a top team you gotta deal with it and they couldnt.

It's basically like the NIT for college basketball. Give those teams that just missed out on the main tournament a chance to have fun & compete for a few more weeks.

Well, Regi should stop spending millions in other esports and clone his team so they can have good quality scrims.

What this also does is: Korean teams can - from time to time - pull out their actual team comp in scrims to bullet proof it and noone would think that they actually intent to play it.

Cuvee is a serious contender for best top laner in the world with Smeb tho, That guy is a monster. I think Impact could have done a lot better if he had better competition to really push his limits.

Group D came with 3 real stipulations on who got out and most people agreed on them going into Worlds. 1) Would RNG perform like we knew they could or would they pull another play offs and play like garbage? 2) Would Samsung play the more passive style like they had most of the split or would they play proactively like in playoffs? 3) Would TSM's domestic success translate to the international stage? Unfortunately for TSM, they under-performed in conjunction of RNG having really good games against them and SSG showing up massively in Week 2. I'm of the opinion that if TSM played slightly better than they did they would be out of groups 100% but they choked and just didn't. Going into it, most people thought that it would be more than likely TSM and either SSG or RNG, but not many people thought SSG and RNG would be the combination that got out of the group since it relied way too much on things that no one was sure would happen.

If anything SSG almost threw the game. DLifts suicide happened when TSM was already behind and SSG fucked up hard.

And I also dont see how "the best team of the west" wasnt able to atleast beat RNG once. Even Splyce could do it. And RNG didnt look good at all during their playoffs match against EDG.

Basically this guy read some comment from another user who said Doublelift said this.... and that guy also read a comment that said.....

Pretty sure most pro players prefered the international event format because it breaks the routine of LCS. Also you have to play less matches, you visit diffrent countriess and they pay you more that way.

I know that both DL and QT said they prefered international events as pro players and I'm pretty sure most of pros would agree with them.

To be fair, the trade for Rush has paid off. Rush is insane mechanically but he had his own host of issues. A fairly limited champion pool, inconsistent and bad decision making, poor synergy with his lanes. He's a really good player, but he was not a shining point on C9's team. Not that Meteos is a huge upgrade though, he's had a lot of issues as well.

is getting good at [anything] worth living a shorter life and risking bodily complications in the future? most elite level professionals make huge sacrifices because they focus on the most important thing in their life. of course its worth it to them. if it wasnt they wouldnt do it.

Not only this but it's been mentioned many times before that teams tend to actually just concede scrims when they fall too far behind. So not only do they not intentionally practice it, they actively avoid practicing it. It's crazy. Can you imagine a football coach saying "Oh we'll only practice getting the lead and playing with the lead". No need to practice what happens when we get behind because if we execute the first part right we'll never be behind. It's a very odd mentality.

Guys. Pretty much all of the teams at world's acknowledged TSM was strong both from watching their games and from scrims. TSM isn't a bad team they just underperformed on stage. It's not that big a deal and it's not like they aren't good they just didn't deliver.

I've gained quite a bit of respect for scarra since he retired.

When he said he was doing thescoreesports interviews because it paid better than riot, I was impressed that he was willing to come out and say that.

Another thing is that they spend A LOT of time theorycrafting, viewing VODs, analyzing enemies etc. Furthermore they do things that they may seem unrelated (playing sports, board games etc) but they are also part of their training.

They dont play LoL for 14-16 hours but their overall practice is around that workload.

In which way was group C a clown fiesta?

Yeah, Ambition was slow yesterday, I agree.

I think the fact that they made few mistakes after grabbing their leads shows decent macro, at least the best you can in a 3-0 stomp like that.

And how is that relevant to the discussion if RNG ONLY looked good in their matches against TSM?

Yeah TSM showed that they are a good team, while it's unfortunate that they played inconsistent and made constant mistakes, they still showed that they were a good team. TSM took a game off SSG and was competitive in the second game (even winning a crucial team fight just for Doublelift to throw away a potential baron). SSG look like the best or second best team at the tournament and TSM looked good against them. TSM just choked, simple as that which was really disheartening to see after how much work they put into this split. I still have high spirits though and I think that TSM will bounce back stronger in 2017.

It's really fucking sad though that this iteration of TSM wasn't able to play a bo5.

Since all teams excluding SKT were playing was above the bar of the major teams this tournament, it just felt horribly to watch teams unable to close out games and just throwing right and left.

The best players we have in NA (TSM) are partying before worlds matches.

This was apparently not true. They had an odd sleeping schedule so that they were most awake during the time when they would be playing, meaning they were up and about in the middle of the night.