I'm amazed that stuff like this is still happening after so many years of arguing. I guess it'll never truly fade away. For the sake of Mississippi women I'm very glad they got to keep their only clinic. The people who try to close clinics seem to lack basic logic. Closing abortion clinics won't stop abortions, it'll only make getting them more risky and dangerous.
Republicans will try to keep this an issue as long as they can, because once it's no longer something we have to fight for, they lose single-issue abortion voters.
I really dislike it that people attempt to impose their immoral and unethical hatred of women on an entire population.
Only one clinic which performs abortions for an entire state? That's outrageous.
If you do not want an abortion then do not have one. Attempting to legislate what another person may to with her own body is abhorrent. It is wicked.
I've had arguments with people on Reddit who truly believe women who are 9 months pregnant seek out abortions for convenience and can get them. The stupid is incredible.
Legitimately people in my town didn't vote for hillary because she "supported tearing babies from their mothers and murdering them" because she said she was pro choice.
"In 2009, most (64.0%) abortions were performed at ≤8 weeks' gestation, and 91.7% were performed at ≤13 weeks' gestation. Few abortions (7.0%) were performed at 14–20 weeks' gestation, and even fewer (1.3%) were performed at ≥21 weeks' gestation." (Source)
Most of the late term abortions are due to problems with the pregnancy or the fetus that cannot be tested for or discovered until later in pregnancy, many of which threaten the mother's health and/or indicate that the fetus is already non-viable. "Elective" late-term abortions make up a tiny percentage of a tiny percentage.
I wonder how many times the doctor that runs this facility has had his own life threatened by people who are "pro life".
It is wicked.
When you take away funding for education, health and childcare I think a word more fitting would be evil.
It probably does stop some poor women from getting abortions. This is why it's so good that the republicans are all about childcare and education and welfare and oh wait.
The argument for 'personal responsibility' is a non-starter. Most services provided by clinics of this sort are health related; the notion that abortions are some kind of 'Oh, lol, I got pregnant. Better get rid of it' is a pathetic strawman errected by the pro-life crowd because - just like every single argument they have - it's easier to attack a lie.
But putting that aside, let's talk about personal responsibility....
If a child needs a kidney transplant in order to survive, and the mother is the only viable donor, should she be forced to give up her kidney if she doesn't want to do so?
If she doesn't want to give up part of her body, does anyone have a right to strap her down and forcefully remove her kidney against her will so that the child can survive?
The answer (I hope you'll agree) is no.
So if an actual child doesn't have the right to usurp the mother's bodily autonomy for the sake of its own survival, why should a fetus have that right?
Though ironically, the nation-wide abortion average is higher for African American and Latina women. Republicans don't do well at courting those demographics. If abortions were outlawed, from a purely statistical standpoint, they would be increasing the number of potential Democratic voters.
What's especially amusing is that the wording of most such laws is based on the idea that life begins, not at conception, but up to two weeks before conception.
And some states outlaw abortion after so many weeks, where I live it's 20. So anatomy scans (to look for birth defects) is at 18 or 19 weeks so women can still abort before the deadline.
You keep talking "accountability," what the hell do you mean?
This is a not-so-subtle code for "women who have sex deserve to be punished for it".
The more you look at the policies of the pro-forced-pregnancy lobby, the more obvious their actual motivations become.
That's not ironic. That's poetic. It would be ironic if their efforts to prevent abortions increased awareness of the procedure and thus increased the number of women seeking abortions.
(small edit: misread the comment the first time)
The feminist organizations want to absolve women for all responsibility for an unborn child.
The overwhelming majority of the time getting an abortion is the responsible choice.
I don't really get the idea of forcing a child on someone who isn't ready/can't afford/doesn't want children/made a mistake/has potential genetic problems and shouldn't/has health problems and doesn't want to risk their life or the 99.9% of reasons that women get abortions. What good does that do?
Correction: They believe that they believe that abortion is murder.
However, their actual policies are completely inconsistent with what they would be if they actually believed that.
Which is huge in the Bible Belt.
The parent didn't choose to make the kid sick
But don't you think parents have a duty of care to their children?
What's the difference between asking a woman who had sex to give up her bodily autonomy if she becomes pregnant, and asking a woman who had a child to give up her bodily autonomy is the child becomes sick?
If the parents did do something to make their kids sick, the the question is whether or not they should be held responsible (like the religious nutcases who don't take their kids to hospitals or the liberal nutcases who don't vaccinate their kids), and the answer is unequivocally yes!
I agree, they should be held responsible if they did something to endanger their child.
But that doesn't mean you can strap them to a table and take out their organs aren't their will, does it?
Because it was the parent's choice to have sex
Irrelevant. In the kidney example, it was the parent's choice to have a child. So why does it matter?
and the logical consequence of sex is a pregnancy
And the logical consequence of having a child is that they could become sick.
And if there is a consequence to that action, then why punish the kid for the parent's choice?
Nobody is punishing a child, anymore than anyone is punishing the child in the kidney example. It's simply a matter of one individual not having the right to usurp the bodily autonomy of another.
Who do you think you are that you have the right to force women to be pregnant against their will, exactly? And if you think you have that right, why don't you think you have the right to force women to give up their kidneys against their will?
The scenarios are exactly the same, and your attempts to separate them don't really work for the reasons explained above.
So I bet there's a way that this could be used to negate a rape accusation...
You joke, but there are Republican politicians who have made a very similar argument.
doesn't mean that they are now absolved of all accountability for their actions.
Condom breaks: "Well fuck you, tough shit, here's a kid."
Again, most often getting an abortion is being accountable for their actions.
You keep talking "accountability," what the hell do you mean? What do you want to happen?
I am totally on your side, but until the anti-abortion people are convinced that abortion isn't murder, you're talking at cross-purposes. They think abortion is wicked because it's murder. I disagree, you probably disagree, but I don't see how we can ever come to an understanding until that changes for us or for them.
Side note: The owner painted this facility pink as a flip off to the anti-abortion crew that reside in Mississippi. They even need 24h security to keep the place running.
There are about 397,000 children floating in the US Foster Care system, waiting to be adopted. Of the minority who actually will get adopted before they age out of the system, the average wait time is three years.
There are about 111,570,000 adults in the United States who consider themselves "pro-life".
If 1 out of every 280 of them each adopted one child, the waiting list would be emptied overnight.
The fact that this hasn't happened says a lot about their priorities.
If, for whatever reason, you are not prepared to take care of a child, the responsible thing to do is to refrain from creating that child in the first place.
The next generation will be the real victims.
Hoo boy. Somebody is looking at pregnancy through rose glasses.
Is going through the pregnancy an unreasonable thing to ask of a woman who had consensual sex with a man and it resulted in a pregnancy?
It is if the woman doesn't want to have a child. Either because of personal reasons or if she financially can't care for it.n and dont' kid yourself in thinking that the people who push for anti-abortion laws will help. Being poor and miserable fits perfectly in their plans.
Again, that doesn't with a pregnancy. The woman doesn't lose a kidney when she gets pregnant. She just happens to share her biological resources with her baby, nothing lost there
She also just happens to go through 9 month's of discomfort, with hormonal changes and all that stuff. With a very painful ending. Also remember, childbirth is still dangerous, and I'm loath to force somebody to go through something that can end up with them dying if they don't want to and there are other options.
Not to mention that if young women get pregnant it and the fetus might get in the way of school and their education, of a future they still want to build. not to mention that they just might not be emotionally ready to go through that entire roller coaster and end up with a baby they can't care for emotionally or financially.
Children should never be a punishment, or something you HAVE to have because of any reason. They should be wanted. Not something somebody else pushes into your life.
Does the father of the child in the above example have the right to force the mother to give up her kidney?
Once again, I'm sure you'll agree that the answer is no. Bodily autonomy is an individual right. It isn't for someone else to force a person to undergo a life altering procedure against their will.
Don't forget blocking adoption for gay couples.
It's actually worse. Their behavior is inconsistent with their beliefs.
Abortion is murder, yet they're willing to have it done to their own child.
They cut funding for poor children and education..
"Republicans only care about children that are stuffed backed into uteruses" -Bill Maher
But people who get pregnant and don't want to be are bad and ought to be punished for the bad things they do. The price of their wickedness should include getting maimed by botched back-alley abortions.
Sadly, the 24-hour security thing is true of abortion clinics (and even Planned Parenthood facilities where no abortions are performed) across the country.
So I bet there's a way that this could be used to negate a rape accusation, since if the woman was already pregnant with my child a day before we "had sex", obviously she's already consented. I just have to make sure to not use a condom. And possibly hold her hostage to make sure she can't get any Plan B within the next day or two.
There might even be a way to make this work for getting out of assault or murder charges, but I'd have to be drinking to figure that out.
I don't think anybody argues that getting an abortion is an inconsequential thing. The eager fetus-killing harlot is a common strawman for anti-abortion groups, but most people who find themselves in a situation where abortion is on the table don't take it quite so lightly.
Probably in the top ten of states that should have the most abortions.
So I know Reddit rules prohibit encitement toward violence, but is that only against humans? And does Akin count?
It's the same sort of self-centeredness that drives a lot of the problems of the world. "They must be sluts, but my reason is justified!" The same sort of people who voted for a party that literally ran on privatization of Social Security and Medicare, who, just as soon as they move to do what they were voted in to do, cry "wait but I use that!" The ACA too - "repeal Obamacare!" They do. "I shouldn't lose my coverage! This isn't fair!" And then they blame someone. Hispanics, black people, someone came and stole their healthcare. We should build a wall to keep them out!
They see themselves as the only ones who are human - everyone else is only an obstacle.
There are so many things really fucked up about that.
That it's so expensive.
That it costs anything at all.
That some insurance doesn't cover it.
That the insurance plan that poor people are on doesn't cover it.
That people even need to take out insurance, that there isn't universal healthcare.
That people are making only $7/hour.
Why do Americans choose that? It sounds terrible.
Yeah I know, I was hoping they would actually try and spout some half brained bullshit that was basically punishing people for having sex.
You implied initially that the issue was all those aborted babies could have gone to someone who wants them. It was pointed out to you that actually no one wants them and then you changed the issue to murder.
If you give a shit about the lives of these kids you'd adopt and foster them. You don't get to call yourself prolife if you don't support comprehensive sex education, paid family leave, government funded or at least discounted child care, and universal single payer healthcare. Each and every one of those issues must be in place before you can conceive of forcing women to incubate fetuses, give birth, and then put those babies into a system. In fact you should also support gay adoption.
Now, tell me you support all of those and I'll let you call yourself pro life instead of what I suspect you really are which is anti abortion.
Closing abortion clinics won't stop abortions, it'll only make getting them more risky and dangerous.
That's the actual point--it's to punish women who dare have sex and then who dare shirk their purpose by being a mother. If a woman has a back-ally abortion and gets hurt or dies as a result, it's her own damn fault for not being a good, chaste woman like god wants.
Ahh yes, because only the wealthy should have access to abortions.
(...) I also understand that this is a very complicated issue, but for some reason the feminist approach of "it's her choice" simply doesn't account for how complicated it actually is.
The "it's her choice" is the only argument we need. No one takes abortions light-heartedly. It is pretty serious business for the pregnant woman, and no further restrictions by the state are necessary.
No one else should be in charge of bodily autonomy except the person to whom that body belongs to.
If it is true that human life begins at fertilization, then couldn't it be argued that killing a human being for your convenience is the problem?
Good thing it doesn't.
The problem arises when people are killing another human because you chose to have sex, when you weren't prepared or willing to deal with the human life you created.
A lot of the outcomes of forced birth could be worse than never even knowing consciousness.
Maybe chastity is a important value to promote in our society?
That'll literally never happen. People who don't even know what sex is end up having sex. One of my good friends was religiously home schooled and guess when she learned what sex was? When she found out she was pregnant on her during her mission trip. Sex feels good, is a biological imperative, and it's practically free even when does semi-responsibly; so poor, young, and bored people will literally always do it. Perhaps it's more important to teach people about sex, prepare them, and give them options that help them make responsible choices pre- and post- conception.
Perhaps the middle ground is found in limitations on when elective abortions can be performed. I've heard (but not verified) that only about 100 third trimester abortions are performed in the US each year, and they're all for emergency conditions. We say that if you've carried that baby for six months, you're going to have to come up with a valid reason for an abortion, and "I changed my mind" doesn't cut it.
Though I'm not sure what you mean by accountable. Do you mean a fine, a tax, some sort of scarlet letter?
I dunno, one clinic would probably be fine for tiny states like Rhode Island or Delaware, but Mississippi is absurdly large, spread out, and barely has enough places to get a driver's license. When you wonder why the South is still a shithole 150 years after they were destroyed during the Civil War, you can see that it's because of the shitty decisions made by self-interested wannabe feudal lords masquerading as politicians.
Well yeah. It's her body. Biology is unfair but you'll just have to get over it.
I vote that any person opposed to abortions is forced to live with the consequences of any decisions they ever make. Broke an arm while skiing? Tough luck you chose to ski no hospital for you.
It's because sex is wrong and you need to be punished for it. That is the entirety of the idea. The same anti abortion lunatics would deport a near term pregnant 12 year old to Caracas to starve to death based on their obsession with punishing everyone else.
You do realize that the real world doesn't actually operate on your make-believe rules, right?
I dont get what people dont go into hysteria about killing tape worms and other living body parasites...
Honestly? Because it's harder (though not impossible) to use tape worms as a justification for punishing people you don't like than it is to use human fetuses.
When you look at the actual policies of the anti-choice movement, you realize that this is the beginning and the end of their motivation.
You really should take your own advice!
Murder is the unlawful killing of another human without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human being with malice aforethought.
US citizen here. America is definitely not a democracy. It's an oligarchy. It's been bought and paid for by the billionaires who own it and make all the decisions. And I've stopped thinking of it as a first-world country. A decent, modern, civilized country wouldn't let it's own people go into soul-crippling debt for trying to get a college education or getting sick. I'm ashamed of all the things that are happening here and how powerless I feel to stop them.
It's almost as if old men in government want to show ownership or something. I've often wondered if anyone has looked into the correlation between the Plantation mentality in the South and the Men that are elected in government here.
I dont get what people dont go into hysteria about killing tape worms and other living body parasites.... The tape worm does the exact same as a fetus but is actually more alive than one at any point during pregnancy
these people should be accountable for their actions
Just because it's economically better for them to abort the child, doesn't mean that they are now absolved of all accountability for their actions.
Why do you keep making emphasis on this? What do you expect people to do, yell they just had an abortion?
What if the man doesn't want to have the child? Can he elect out of parenthood? How is that consequence accounted for?
In the current law? It isn't, which I find terrible. A man should be capable of choosing to acknowledge his child or not. Aborting his right to parenthood if you will. If he doesn't. the the law or the system can't slap him with childcare bills.
None of which result in her losing a kidney or any other vital organs.
So as long it doesn't result in somebody losing a kidney or other vital organs I can do whatever I want to you to help other people?
Cool, I'll just strap you down and drain some of that blood of yours for a desperately needed transfusion. no consent asked nor needed.
That's a risk clearly present and one that the person takes when they engage in sexual activity.
Most anti-abortion voters also vote in laws that gut sexual education and because of it, young people have no clue what causes pregnancy. or which safety measures can be taken against it. Not nice for you to push assessing risk on the people who don't have the knowledge to properly deal with the risk.
If somebody does something risky, and it fails. Should we let that destroy their lives? If somebody crashes a car or is in a car crash (a risk that is clearly present when they got in.) Should we just shrug and walk away? If those people get crippled and their lives are forever changed because of it. Should we just blame them and move on?
Right, but as I said: I hope we can agree that pregnancy isn't inconsequential. So given that there are consequences, should there be accountability? I don't know what accountability we should expect, but I certainly think some is necessary.
I have no idea what you mean with this. Because you're clearly against abortions from consensual sex. But I would call abortion a way of dealing with the consequences of unwanted pregnancy. You also seem to talk like accountability in this case can only mean accepting the baby and raising it. Accountability means taking responsibility and dealing with the problem at hand. Of which abortion is one;
An unwanted pregnancy ruins lives. It ruins the lives of the parents who have to rearrange their entire life plan. It might prevent them from getting education or that job they need. The financial drain of a baby might completely push them into debt. (babies are expensive to care for.)
It ruins the life of the child. The parents might blame the child for blocking their dreams, they might not be capable of providing for it properly. It might not get the education it needs thanks to the financial problems of the parents. It could get neglected.
All of these things are consequences of an unwanted pregnancy. Abortion is a fix for this. Forcing the pregnancy to come to term is not. It creates them.
They also generally support the death penalty which is literally state sanctioned murder. So disposing of a ball of microscopic cells is murder but putting to death a person because 12 strangers said they don't have a right to live is somehow ok.
my own local men's and women's clinic which has NEVER provided abortions of any type.. has protesters on the regular.. which have huge signs against abortion and shit.
I've never understood it. I've gone to see about getting meds for a urinary infection and been face to face with people holding signs and chanting.. Only to tell them that no abortion has or will ever be done at the office. Hell, we don't even have a planned parenthood in our town anymore.
The courts are bound to follow legal precedent and legal precedent says abortion (before the point of viability, something the forced birth crowd conveniently forgets) is constitutionally guaranteed. So judges rule with the law regardless of their personal beliefs.
An abortion at a clinic like this costs about $500 with no anesthesia. At a hospital or outpatient surgery clinic and with anesthesia it's about $5000. Some people's insurance covers the procedure but not all. Medicaid which is the plan poor people are on does not cover it. Hence the need for small clinics who can do it cheap. If you make $7/hour you might be able to scrape together $500 but you'd never get $5000. :(
It was pointed out to you that actually no one wants them and then you changed the issue to murder.
Ladies and gentlemen, that loud scraping noise you hear is the sound of goalposts being moved.
Killing something that is alive is murder.
So picking a flower is murder, and washing your hands is genocide. Got it.
You do realize that words have definitions for a reason, right? You are of course free to arbitrarily redefine them however you like within the privacy of your own head (like calling an acorn a "tree" or a fetus a "person"), but if you do, don't act surprised when other people don't understand your gibberish.
Its not addressed because its not an issue. When men start birthing babies on their own, then they can have some say on whether or not a fetus should be terminated. Also, not all men who participate in the process of pregnancy are forced to support said child. Only when the mom sues for child support, and when he is successfully served and looses the law suite would he be forced to support a child he doesn't/didn't want.
From Canada - blown away that there's only one abortion clinic in an entire state the size of Mississippi...
Then it goes to "put those baby killers in prison"
You're coming across as very sexist and you seem to have something against feminists. I'm sorry that biology is the way that it is, but like other people have said, until men start birthing babies, women are going to have the final decision. Men also have the option of staying with the mother and trying to parent together.
I'm happy to come from a country without abortion clinics - abortions are performed at normal hospitals under the UHC system.
Why do Americans choose that?
Because, as we saw in the last election, too many Americans make really bad, uninformed choices when choosing our elected leaders.
Killing something that is alive is murder. Use a dictionary
Murder is unjustified/unlawful killing. We don't 'murder' a cow, we 'slaughter' it. We don't 'murder' people on death row, we 'execute' them. Whatever your thoughts on morality, it's not 'murder'.
Moreover, if you chopped off your earlobe, you haven't 'murdered' your earlobe. The earlobe's cells die, but it's not murder.
Abortion is akin to cutting off your earlobe.
This is the crazy thing. You can get birth control from these places as well. Reducing the reason for getting an abortion in the first place. And if the parents would get their heads out of their asses and stop electing "abstinence only education" candidates, maybe the teen pregnancy rate wouldn't be so high.