The video is a few years old now. It should be clear that several people were carrying Ak's and possibly an RPG. There was small arms fire/rpg shots and marines in action less than a mile or so from the event, this is why the helicopter was circling the area. They spotted a group of people walking in the street when everyone else in the area had the good sense to get indoors.
On one hand i'm voting this election to end the wars, but on the other hand they are wars. Don't fool yourselves into thinking this hasn't happened in every war in human history. America is better than this type of chaotic action; horrible leadership in this war is the reason this happened. Fuck all of you saying this is what america is or what americans want, nobody wants this to happen, but this is what happens in wars.
AKs were legal to own and widely spread at the time. The RPG was a tripod/camera. Neither were reason to fire without accurate confirmation.
And then there's the whole shooting a Samaritan van that had children in it...
I have three cousins who've been in this conflict, two in Iraq and another on a submarine. Two are out and the other is a lifer and now trains marines.
That said, I don't support 'the troops.'
I support soldiers like this man, who are willing to challenge the causes of war, and the costs. This man is a shining beacon, an exemplar for others to take note of and follow. I support anyone who can place themselves in this kind of conflict without the blind desire to hurt others - even though I know a tour can do that to you.
As for 'the troops', if you've been through enough shit to kill innocent people because they might be bad guys, then you are of no use to the country I used to be proud of.
why the fuck are they still in Iraq and Afghanistan?!?..
OFCOURSE they are going to defend their country and people if YOU go over to THEIR country and set up bases and fuck around.
im not gonna lie.. watching this made me cry.. :(
After his economic rape, and human destruction initiatives; how does George Bush live with himself? How does he sleep at night? Is he too fucking stupid to know what his administration did to the world, or just that evil? To see him smiling and carrying on the way he does (post presidency) is almost unbearable. He created an unmeasurable amount of human devastation and hardship.
You're talking about a man that ran away from a war and went AWOL in the National Guard. Who then proceeded to force and bully others into starting a war propped up on lies. The fucker should be labelled a mass murderer but he gets away with living the rest of his days peacefully in a Texas mansion.
Shit, even grand scum like Hitler fought in WW1, Bush never shot at a man in his life. And yes I just made a Nazi reference, sue me.
Most of what you are saying is correct and you have every right to (hell, obligated to even) defend your country's actions. However, I think you're missing a crucial point because you're too focused on advocating an argument to justify their behavior; to provide a parallel to the one-sided "America is evil" perception this video is emitting. You're missing the very subtle point that could understandably go unnoticed, of this issue not being about whether they were justified in engaging in what they considered battle, but rather the incredible lack of remorse they show after having engaged in battle and killed innocent people and children. I'm not saying they needed to have a sudden candle light vigil for the innocent victims, but at the very least silence, instead of clever remarks: "oh well, they shouldn't have brought their kids to battle", would have been more than enough to show sign of humanity in the soldiers.
And before anyone says anything about there is no humanity in war and other countries would do the same: as the self-proclaimed world leader, the U.S should set an example in every aspect of life, especially compassion, as they are simply no better than terrorist organizations when they behave as they did in the video.
No, they had RPG's, they had to bring in EOD to destroy them, and there are pictures of them after the fact. There was a photographer there, and they incorrectly identified his camera as a weapon, but they correctly identified the fellow standing there with an RPG behind him.
Also, they did indeed bring the children to an American hospital not an "inferior Iraqi hospital" like Wikileaks originally claimed.
Unfortunately yes. The most difficult part of a counterinsurgency is not knowing your enemy.
But one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
It's funny how you call this a war, but then call anyone who has the audacity to fight on the other side of that war (i.e. the one's fighting against an invading army) terrorists and refuse to give them any of the rights of POW's...so is it still considered a war like any other war? Or is this a special war?
"Pulled as much glass from the little girl's eyes so she could blink" just fucking wrecked me.
"That's what you get for bringing children into a battle"
Soldier: "This happens every day in Iraq".
These people live there, and their country was invaded without having attacked anyone.
This, along with the one with the AKM to his left side, was more than enough to justify firing after they had been called in to provide support to an allied unit taking fire two blocks away.
You can not tell me that the copilot didn't make a reasonable decision in the initial engagement based on reports from the ground and what he saw.
I had a good friend from high school who was killed by an I.E.D. blast in Iraq. I normally don't watch things like this because as bad as losing my friend was, it is 1000 times worse when I imagine that this was what he was experiencing before he died.
I applaud the bravery of this young man Ethan McCord to retell what he went through. If we could just listen to this young man, we will try to do everything in our power to avoid war. We must do everything in our power to avoid putting human beings through this sick torture.
The notion that this conflict could have been avoided turns this from being a tragedy to it being a crime. Sorry if I'm not making sense.
And Brad Manning sits in a cell in Fort Leavenworth...
OMFSM!!! I am tired of people sitting on the computer 1000's of miles away saying "Oh, it's a war zone. Such things happen" Coming from the Middle East and visited Iraq a few times, I am tired of listening to people describing Baghdad as a war zone. It has ~7.3 million citizens living there. That roughly the population of London. Thus the ratio of combatants to non-combatants is tiny. If there were gunmen roaming in London, would you call the fucking police or have a military gunship blast their cannons at them. I realize the analogy is not perfect, but I stand by my opinion that force being used in Baghdad is far too excessive. People living there have mo where else to go. There are universities, cafes, schools, grocery stores and social venues. People there also fall in love, smoke weed, watch shitty Indian movies (which are sooo bad they are funny) My point is they are normal everyday people just like you, but in abnormal circumstances. Soldiers should realize this simple fact and not open fire with helicopters. My appeal to the American people is use your democratic powers and call your troops home. I don't know if the Iraqis will manage on their own. Right now you're doing their job of "liberating" themselves, refusing the opportunity to develop.
and isn't working, and never will.
Yes, each family was allowed one AK style rifle for home protection. However, they were not allowed to carry those weapons in public, they were not allowed any type of machine gun, and they were not allowed RPGs (not even the Iraqi police were allowed to carry RPGs).
Just carrying an RPG was grounds for engagement. The fact that the Apache's had been called in because soldiers in the area had been taking small arms and rpg fire just lent weight to the decision to open fire.
What does that crazy Ron Paul mean when he says end the wars?
I teared up thinking about how much I want to love my country dearly but that there is no way I can fully do that with all the harm we do to the livelihood of this World in the name of protecting it.
How is this a war? Wars have a goal. Wars can be won. The USA is just fucking around there, wasting billions of dollars repeating Russia's mistakes. There's not even oil in afghanistan.
At least one man in that group was carrying a RPG-7 and another was carrying an AK-47 or AKM assault rifle.
(google "ethan mccord wiki")
I think the Kurds would disagree with your statement.
I don't think you understand what PTSD actually is. Believing that what you are doing is morally bankrupt isn't what causes PTSD. "Traumatic" is part of the phrase for a reason. People who watch their buddies get blown out of a vehicles into small pieces by an IED are the kind of people who get PTSD, or people who snap under fire, or watch their long-time friend get shot in the face and die right in front of them. "This war sucks and is immoral" doesn't break your mind on that kind of level. It might decrease your morale, but it doesn't break you.
As much as I hate all this, as much as I hate all the war and killing and death, no matter who is right; the thing I hate most is that I can't to a damn thing about it. All I can do is watch these people die.
You're missing the point. Lots of people have guns in Iraq, we don't go after them. We go after the ones that shoot people with those guns. Like Zigtastic said, the people appeared to be in POSESSION OF WEAPONS RIGHT AFTER A FIREFIGHT and were the ONLY ONES OUTSIDE. That isn't "anyone with an AK".
Have you not seen the video? It was a father coming by in a car with his two children, trying to help a bunch of civilians/journalists that just got slaughtered for no reason. It's disgusting. And it's not a "war", it's occupation for oil, nothing else.
Why do so many people ignore this point? At night, there was a STRICT curfew in effect in Baghdad. Being outside, after curfew, in groups with multiple weapons in hand...these guys aren't out to get their mail.
Also, it was protocol for the Iraqi insurgency to quickly scoop up the wounded/dead so the Americans could not investigate further. This is why you see a van appear so quickly to help.
Civilian ambulances don't drive into firefights.
It's not a war anymore. It's an occupation of a foreign country.
The guy in the video said he saw an RPG on the ground next to a body when he arrived on the scene. When I saw the original video, I thought it was just the camera being mistaken for an RPG, but perhaps there actually was an RPG there.
these guys aren't out to get their mail.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it two Reuters journalists and their guides? Hardly a group out to cause trouble.
Can we get another guy to read the same speech, but make sure he isn't wearing an Affliction t-shirt?
That first part isn't true. It was legal to carry an AK openly for security reasons.
The second part, the guy was driving his kids and happened to see a bunch of men gunned down. He was trying to help. The old "Shouldn't have worn a skirt before getting raped" argument is BS.
There was, this has pictures from the EOD team that showed up afterwards to destroy the RPG-7 that the guy had.
Look at the guy BEHIND the photographer, he has an RPG.
It is a known tactic that insurgence retrieve bodies and weapons to prevent further investigation and use those incidents as potential recruitment propaganda and creating a atmosphere of doubt among the general public. Insurgents* also take their injured to hospitals and claim their innocence. It then gets recorded as civilian causality by the hospital.
What angers me more is the callous* remarks by the pilots. It doesn't just stop there*. Removing humanity from your enemy has always been used by individuals dealing with death on that scale. There is no easy answer for the military to get their soldiers to perform in extraordinary circumstances. This is why their superiors tend to have an overtly 'macho' attitude in telling their personnel to 'suck it up' and 'stop being pussies'.
In my opinion, military leaders have to set an example of behavior regardless if their underlings act callous*. That's why they are leaders.
I agree with you for the most part, but part of me feels like what they were saying was just a way to cope with what was going on
I was with the US Army and deployed to Iraq in 2005 and 2007. In 2007 Civilians were given the right to one weapon per house hold, and was able to open carry. This video took place the same time I was over there. It was very common to see civilians with their weapons because of 'Ali Baba' (thieves) to protecting their sheep from the wild dogs. This video though showed that the pilots in the rotor aircraft came to a too quick of a judgement on who the enemy was.
Why did they shoot the van?
I agree with Yoda.
The source is shit, but it's legitimate. The pictures that they pulled came from a CENTCOM report that was up last year. Not sure if it's still available from the direct source, the page seems broken.
You can try to have a look here, the report is linked in the article.
You have to consider that in Iraq we weren't fighting a uniformed enemy. The insurgents hid among the civilian population and were often indistinguishable from non-combatants. Once you take away the rifle or RPG an insurgents body becomes a 'civilian' casualty.
I don't think we'll ever know for sure how many actual civilians were killed in that conflict but our ROE tends to limit that number as much as humanly possible.
Mainstream media ignores Ron Paul.
It's simply "might makes right".
It's funny because our ROE was a bunch of shit way before we were allowed to open up on anyone. But I don't know what his or their ROE was. I think I still got one of the little cards they give you when you get in country. I'll scan it if I can find it because I know a bunch of people (mostly expert civilians) are gonna downvote this because they think we are allowed to just shoot anyone who looks at us wrong.
USA : This is why people hate you.
I hate everything about this. Who still thinks these "wars" are valid? Please! Consider this an IAMA request!
Well said, man.