Two women feared dead in Grenfell Tower tragedy were threatened with legal action - after raising alarm about fire safety

Two women feared dead in Grenfell Tower tragedy were threatened with legal action - after raising...

And that is why a lot of college towns have renters associations. Because there are enough slum lords around and they don't give a shit and will attempt to extort or sue* you if anything is wrong and you complain.

I'm about to become a landlord and I keep repeating to myself, please don't become a slumlord. Unfortunately I know someone will eventually screw me...

well in this case, it wasn't really a slumlord... Grenfell Tower was public housing, so it was more like an extension of the government that threatened legal action against those women. this Grenfell issue is only just beginning, the problems run to the very core of how their government operates.

EDIT: oh, and it turns out that the borough in question has the most reserve money out of any borough in London, with 250 million pounds, yet they couldn't be bothered to spend 200,000 on sprinklers or the extra 5,000 on fireproof cladding. pretty amazing, to be sure. also pretty amazing that the victims have only been promised 5 million pounds from May. I hope they never tear down Grenfell, it should remain there as a monument to the greed and corruption in the UK.

EDIT 2: the fireproof cladding would have cost 5,000 pounds, not 2,000. fixed.

sprinklers

cladding cost

more cladding

What happened? Did the UK all of a sudden go back 150 years in time? Or has it always been this bad?

The way this is being handled is disgusting, 500 people lived in that tower block where are the survivors? People from that area still can't find their friends, their family yet they are not on the casualty list. The dead count is being massively downplayed due to damage control the inhumanity is insane

Capitalism happened. Remember this tragedy when you hear about deregulation.

It's more or less always been this way. It's just most people never really see it.

The UK gov has always been very good a hiding it's shit under the carpet (normally with the medias help).

It's just now a lot of things happened in quick succession and are snowballing together under May's banner of general incompetent unpleasantness.

If you take all of the previous events (policies promised, election, extremist attacks, fire etc) and spaced them all out nothing would have happened cos the tories would have the time to mitigate/deflect each and everything would stay business as usual.

Unfortunately for the tories they've eroded their own public safety buffer through shit like austerity so people are already angry as hell and now you have a lot of very bad symptoms with the promise of an imminent cardiac arrest (brexit negotiations).

It's still a slumlord (they are run by a company), it's just a slumlord that gets taxpayer dollars.

Which yes, makes it worse.

There was a video of this woman from the neighborhood saying where are all the people? Seems like the media is downplaying the death toll by a lot

This is what the Tories mean by cutting down the red tape. Weak regulations that get people killed!

You don't need to identify a body to add it to a death toll. There have been comments that firefighters found one room that had 42 dead people in it. 42 in one room. The media are still reporting 30 people known dead total. There is a significant cover up going on. Very very few people got out, from hundreds who lived there.

The more I haer about this the worse it becomes. Makes me want to cry... The dead need justice, people need to spend years in prison for this.

yeah, gimme a sec, ill grab em. been reading a lot on this fire the last few days, i think it's gonna snowball into something big in the UK.

edit 1: sprinklers https://www.theengineer.co.uk/grenfell-fire-sprinkler-system-would-have-cost-200000/

edit 2: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-resistant-cladding-kensington-... http://www.itv.com/news/2017-06-16/grenfell-tower-contractors-didnt-use-fire-proof-cladding-that-...

and i guess it was 5,000 pounds, not 2,000. Still chump change.

Which just shows she doesn't really understand cricket either...

Theresa May would watch the whole country burn if she could be Queen of the ashes.

Disability stuff is really terrible in this country, the tests are notoriously strict and you have to keep having them if you want to keep recieving benefits. Y'know, just incase your leg grows back.

Social housing is an amazing asset to any country though, it would make the tragedy 1000 times worse if this disaster is used as a political tool to sell off social housing and remove a service that helps millions of people all because of a badly run borough and terrible contractors.

That's the poor. It does impact POC more.

It's actually taking a long time to properly search the building and more importantly identify the bodies. Identifying a body from ash is not easy, and not everyone has dental records to match to.

> elects regressives

>"Woah, how'd we get here?"

The state is Capitalist.

Of all the costs they skipped, things like 200K, etc wouldn't have made much of a difference. It was that 5K that caused the most damage in respect to coating the entire building in a flammable wrapping. That's what really makes this outrageous. Extreme penny pinching on the most important things. In this respect though 5K goes a lot further then 200K on sprinklers. Heck, at this point they would have saved more money with no cladding at all. The sprinkler system is a distraction from the real scandal.

Because Rupert Murdoch is a big friend of May, and May doesnt want rioting in the streets.

Likewise the BBC, who have several Conservatives on their governing board.

It doesn't really, not any more. I think we've recently slipped really far down the child welfare index as well, after being near the top for years. Turns out enforced austerity is shitty to live in - who knew??

This is not supposed to even be a thing in Western Europe.

The slumlord here was part of the state though:

http://www.kctmo.org.uk/sub/about-us/20/the-board

UK is not really Western Europe. They're something completely different. More American than European. Their welfare department declares quadruple amputees "fit for work" because they can still crouch up the stairs.

If there's a safety regulation on the books, then you can be sure something terrible happened to cause it.

The sprinklers shouldn't entirely be discounted. Sprinklers may have kept the fire from reaching the exterior where the cladding could ignite. It seems like both had a big role in this. The cladding was obviously the biggest factor in turning a small emergency into a major catastrophe and it appears like cladding is the cheapest safety upgrade that was skipped if reports are correct.

The whole shelter in place plan, however, was built on the philosophy that the building was already designed to contain a fire within one apartment, and the exterior cladding being exposed shows that didn't happen. The fire did make it outside of the apartment where it originated, so the original assumptions about the building's initial fire containment ability were wrong.

It's public housing.

No, you don't need to identify it first technically, but it's best practice to identify and inform the family.

Give it a couple more days and you'll see the toll tick up.

Also I'd love to see a link to those firefighter comments about 42 people in one room, I haven't seen any quote like that and I've been following the news on this pretty closely as it's related to my field of practice.

That's nice, but they'll tear it down and build luxury condos. I guarantee it

You clearly don't live in the U.K.

Thing is cheap housing should be calculated over the life of the building, not on how much it costs to build.

I was in college accomodation two of my four years. (which is relatively rare here compared to the US)

The old building was derided as old fashioned but it was built like a bunker. Concrete walls, steel electrical sockets/fixtures all that kind of stuff. No frills, but very very functional.

The newer place was much pretty and all that, bean bags everywhere, open living areas. Place was built like shit though. You could hear people fucking two floors away, never mind next door.

Old place is still going. Recently got a retro fit for wifi and a new roof. New place was torn down.

Dear God- you might lose your life, but we'll destroy your life if you try to stop us. And then they die.

I'd be amazed if those responsible end up facing real consequences, but I can't even fathom the horror of living- and dying- in this situation.

The contractors are just doing what the owners asked them to do.

Their welfare department declares quadruple amputees "fit for work" because they can still crouch up the stairs.

Tell me you're trolling...

They have... Every time they announce a death count they make it clear that it only relates to bodies which they have physically counted and that they expect many more.

This was a serious fucking fire, the upper floors are so badly burnt bodies (The charred bones) will be hidden amongst other shit. It is not like they have a magic tool to find and identify bodies.

They can't identify people, these are charred bones, how do you identify remains which may have no DNA on record? You can't exactly get a family member to have a look and say "yep, that pile of ashes is definitely x"?

Any self respecting contractor should refuse to carry out dangerous work.

You can have profitable no frills housing without compromising on basic safety. Don't feel bad about being a slumlord, just don't be an asshole and put your residents at risk because you want to save 2% on sprinklers. The world needs cheap housing, just not cheap housing that burns to the ground.

Italy in particular has become particularly bad in some cities. Cosa Nostra has made a killing in trafficking and housing cheap labor from Africa in really unsafe conditions. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/sicily-after-dark-where-the-refugee-crisis-meets-thema...

You take a reasonable comment that links this specific event to capitalism and claim the OC is saying that all evil is created by capitalism?

That is a stupid argument and amounts to simple name-calling.

And FYI there are specific facts that support OCs argument, including the fact that the recent renovation used cladding that combusted rather than fire-resistant cladding. The difference was £5000 for the entire block.

Assuming they knew it was dangerous.

"Here's the cladding we want put on the building." "Is that up to code?" "Yeah yeah, we checked it, it's fine."

"Hey did you guys need me to check the sprinklers while I'm here? They look kinda rough." "No thanks, we'll get a specialist to look at them."

etc.

You'd be surprised how common it really is. Not just in the UK either.

They have the NHS so at least the amputations themselves won't cost an arm and a leg

They really aren't.

People have been declared fit to work only to die a week later and stuff.

Google "UK ATOS PIP assessment" and have a look. ATOS are the company that does the assessments (who are in no way medically trained...) and PIP is what our disability benefit is called.

Is Grenfell Tower a building specifically for minorities? Because it seems almost everyone living there are blacks and middle easterners.

TDLR: Life ain't black and white. This is too simplistic an answer to the question posed. Jumping on a popular bandwagon will not help.

I suspect you mean greed happened. Capitalism can and does work very well wi regulation in many countries. There are a lot of regulations about a great many things in the UK. I was quite surprised that apparently multi tenant housing in the UK doesn't need a minimum of two manners of egress. I always thought it did. Yet the UK has a lot more regulation than the USA, for example. Yet I don't recall capitalism leading to smouldering buildings in either of these two countries on a weekly basis.

What happened is a tragedy to be sure but to simply equate the cause of what happen to capitalism is overly simplistic to say the least imho. If you can however show me that this couldn't have happened in a non capitalist system I will concede my point. However I suspect you can't because human greed, and ignorance of others, doesn't need capitalism to flourish. As an example of how evil and stupid things don't rely on capitalism for a cause feel free to have a look at the history of the Soviet Union and China under Mao. Neither were nearly as capitalist, and we don't associate them with the term, as the UK and yet many people died who didn't need to. In fact looking at Chernobyl the more capitalist countries are still cleaning that up and will be for a long time.

We should remember that no regulation is perfect and regulation can also easily be abused. There was a happy time when there wasn't much regulation in the US regards postal services. A family set up, in Boston as I recall, doing same day deliveries for less than USPS would deliver in 2-3 days. Because they made money and were successful other people followed their example. The US government, in its infinite wisdom, went to the people with the most experience in the USA regards postal matters for advice on regulation. USPS, as the biggest, provided that advice and ensured that their small competitions were snowed under with paperwork and put out of business. The costs and stupidity still exist today, hurrah for regulation in this case.

Life is not all sunshine and roses or all tar and crap. Life isn't, and hasn't been, black and white or so simplistic at any point in history. Let's not jump to conclusions so quickly. A proper analysis with consultation or multiple relevant groups can move us forward. Your answer won't.

Sometimes by law they have to accept the cheapest offer for any government project. Because it's "good" mangement of public money.

Yes, the fire resistant cladding was £2 more per square metre. Which adds up to about £5,000 total, which is absolutely miniscule in a multi million pound budget.

Here is a more credible source

Who says nothing about 42 bodies in a room.

It's a terrible situation, but people need to be wary of making things worse.

I mean this whole thing would have probably been averted if they used Faser(which is fire-retardent) instead of Styrofoam for insulation.But with all public projects - the cheaper it is, the more money we can pocket.

pounds*

The Tories are currently being quite effective at dismantling the NHS though, it's severely underfunded and this is being used as an excuse to use private contractors as much as possible (despite costing more long term).

Even schools are being increasingly handed over to the private sector, if a school is underperforming it can be forced to sell to private entities

The housing council wanted to improve the exterior appearance of the building, so as to preserve the property values of all the rich peoples' luxury housing surrounding it, in the richest borough of London.

They chose a cladding material that was £2 cheaper per sq metre than the fire retardant one.

They either can't identify the bodies, or can't reach them at all.

Stupid America with your 'fire marshals', 'central alarms', 'fire escapes' and whatever those water sprinkling things in the ceiling are called! We'll show you!

If you want all those people bring to justice who deliberately screw people over and over again to make a fortune,start building alot of prisons.

The big list

Murder

Conspiracy

Intimidation

If this is your line of argument, how about you move to somalia for pure capitalism.

I think he doesn't want to be like the U.s. who have extremely strict building codes to prevent large scale fires.

George Orwell.

The cladding also remains most significant as it appears similar results might have been seen from an ordinary bin (garbage) or car fire against the base of the building.

capitalism is just the environment that allows greed to flourish

Looooool sorry but wtf?

There have been comments that firefighters found one room that had 42 dead people in it.

One group of guys said their mate is a firefighter and he told them they found that room. Take it with a pinch of salt.

This whole thing is a horrible clusterfuck

OP: This tragedy is a result of deregulation, which is a result of capitalism.

You: OH SO ALL BAD THINGS ARE CAUSED BY CAPITALISM HUH

This is called a "strawman" argument - you are attempting to invalidate your opponent's argument by mischaracterizing it. Although engaging in a logical fallacy does not, in itself, invalidate your own argument, it also does not support it.

Am I correct in presuming that your argument is that the Grenfell Tower fire is not connected to capitalism or deregulation?

Land lord for 10 years here. They will screw you. Assume this. Give an inch, they will take a mile. Have no pity, have no remorse. Know the laws of your jurisdiction and enter every tenancy relationship by gathering all the necessary information to sue or expediantly evict the tenant should the need arise. Trust no one. Especially tenants with kids. Keep your place in good shape. Schedule quarterly or semi annual inspections.

Not everyone is horrible, and not everyone enters into the business relationship with the intentions to be horrible. But things change. The best you can do is be prepared while being cordgial. Do not give leniency in any way.

And with luck you'll get excellent tenants. I've had both good and bad, but the bad ones cost me dearly. Hopefully this helps.

Because it's good mangement of public money.

Good management of public money = we don't have to spend anything on safety, who cares if people die?

How is thinking about money instead of quality a good way to handle finances?

George Osbourne (But didn't care)?

I saw that the fireproof cladding they didn't want to buy was an extra £1 each for a total of about £2000. Haven't heard anything about the sprinklers but I'd expect it is correct.

They spend more on being "tough on benefit scroungers" than it would cost to have a less strict system, it's just political dick waving.

Like the scheme which requires people to sit in the job centre for 8hours a day in order to receive job seekers, using up resources needlessly with no tangible benefit.

Or the worst imo is the mandatory work placement, they don't get paid minimum wage and lose benefits for not participating, if a business needs staffing they should be required to pay for staff, not get free forced labour to help make a politician look proactive on benifit fraud.

Food bank use is going through the roof at the moment, sure it's pretty shitty that some people take advantage of the social system, but it isn't worth hurting hundreds of thousands of innocent people just to spite them, especially when it doesn't save money anyway.

OMG lived my whole life thinking I was in Western Europe. Thank NucularCoffee77, you singlehandedly rewrote the geopolitics of Europe.

It's not the NHS that is the problem here. This problem is in welfare and welfare payments.

In order to weed out fraudulent disability claims the rules are so tight that it weeds out legitimate claims as well, and to cut costs the claims process has been undermined on top of the insane requirements for disability. At no point in this chain of failures is the NHS causing a problem.

and yet conservatives always complain that the bbc has a liberal bias. As for Murdoch, his only true friend is money. Also what about a paper like the guardian? they're not exactly conservative friendly but they are supposedly suppressing the death toll too?

They'll just wait till the outrage dies down. They'll be the nicest condos this side of the Atlantic

They should find the person who sent the threatening letter and put them in jail.

That would be their default position, but now it's become such a political hot potato, I don't know if they'd dare.

They're more likely to make a big song-and-dance about how Grenfell Tower II is the best social housing project in the UK, blah, blah. A model for the future, no less. Then it'll turn out five years later they sold all their other properties at the same time while no-one was looking.

Yep.

Code books are written with blood and fire.

Nope:).The Netherlands.

Tip for not being a slumlord: the place needs to be cleaned and painted after a tenant moves out. So don't steal their security deposit to do it.

Science improved their lives. Capitalism commoditized their lives. Which framework is actually worthy of your respect and admiration?

Literally just spat my tea out because of you.

for what purpose would "the media" want to downplay the death toll? If anything they would want a bigger number no?

The US and UK battling it out to see which (former) superpower can become more embarrassing quicker.

and i am not preaching against capitalism but saying that people should recognize that capitalism is the perfect environment for greed to flourish especially when there's reduced rules/regulations.

Tell that to American fundamentalists.

He's not saying we should all go full communism, he's pointing out a very real issue about capitalism. It allows corporations/organizations to get extremely rich and powerful and exploit everything from the people to the environment, leading to massive wealth gaps between the rich and poor. It has always existed throughout history, including now.

I had $300 taken out of my security deposit after my mom, my sister, my dad, and I spent six hours cleaning the place. It was only a two bedroom apartment, the whole place was sparkling. They took a $300 "cleaning fee" anyway. Fucking slumlords are slumlords no matter what.

The old building was derided as old fashioned but it was built like a bunker. Concrete walls, steel electrical sockets/fixtures all that kind of stuff. No frills, but very very functional.

We had a few dorms like that here on campus, but now I think it's just down to the one Paty Hall. Place is literally a bunker, concrete completely, and wouldn't ever fall down. They keep tearing down these old buildings that would last forever for these newer ones, and you watch them being built out of nothing but plywood. The funny(sad) thing is they build them for cheap, charge more for living in them, and they have a lifespan of only 10 years is what the administration says.

Can't find the article but I'm pretty sure the guardian reported the sprinklers as £180,000. The panels were £2 more each as I recall.

We had a significant fire in the building across the street from us, similar in age to the Grenfell tower but not nearly as big. The fire demolished three units and the building ended up getting torn down.

I talked to the police chief the day of the fire and he said that if the building had had sprinklers then the fire would have been a non-issue.

I live in a house that is owned by a housing association, it has been renovated a few years back, and with renovating i mean new kitchen, new bathroom, new outer walls with isolation, new roof, new window casings,and so on.Total cost per house was about 40 thousand Euros,and with rent rebate i pay just under 300 euro per month.It has a total living space of over 100 m2 with a front and back garden in a very nice and quiet neighbourhood.Oh and recently i got a nice offer of the company to put solarpanels on my roof to decrease my costs on my electrical bill.

Thanks!

Why the fuck does UK score so high on quality of life measures then?

I'd caution against pinning their behaviour on austerity. The wider principle of 'small government' and deregulation is the root of the problem. Austerity specifically relates to public expenditure and I suspect the tories will drop the word soon to shed the bad connotations

I trust the bbc. They just wont say anything about the actually number of dead until it has been confirmed by officials. The BBC are not really/left or right imo. They are corporatists and dislike both Trump and Corbyn. They are also extremely anti brexit.

The other shit rags will say anything to further there agenda though. Some recent headlines condemn the protesters for being angry, I shit you not. The comments with most likes in the Daily Mail were saying how it's to be expect because there not British. It makes me sick. A lot of fucking children died and they say this!

unfortunately not. the tories introduced quotas to disability tests, so as a result we get shit like terminally ill people being declared fit to work and then dying a few days later.

No it's not. Sure there is a housing benefit which in some cases is paid direct to the landlord (this is rare now) but that's not the same thing as 'getting a free house'.

As a resident of post-communistic country, I assure you, your comment is bullshit.

Sounds like the management and their lawyers are both screwed.

Lawyers accused him of “defamatory behaviour” and “harassment”

Yeah, except he was exactly right and the lawyers full of shit. Next time these lawyers talk about defamation and harassment, no one will believe them.

And when the TMO still didn’t listen, the pair encouraged householders to put up signs on their front doors and deny access to contractors who were carrying out a major refurbishment.

I can see why they were threatened with legal action.

The fact that these women are "feared dead" this fucking long afterwards is what made me realize just how huge of a disaster the whole thing is.

They could have at least used pure styrofoam instead of cutting it with gasoline.

So you don't mind living in torch-blocks with water imported directly from Flint.

Even NASA contracts go to the lowest bidder.

They saw the US and said "Hold my beer"

Why?

Gotta clear out the poor for those luxury high rises.

The situation is extremely complicated, but most councils sold off or handed control of their social housing to housing associations because the right to buy and insane restrictions on borrowing to build social housing dis-incentivised them from owning or building social housing. This was not a coincidental side effect but a deliberate policy of the Tories.

Plain stupid*

Plane stupid was what gave us 9/11.

It's not even good management of money long term.

If you took the long term view then safety is very obviously the right choice economically.

In perfectly cold terms, how much productivity has been lost across the country just talking about this disaster? How much in taxes have been lost over the lifetime of those that are now dead, or some of the injured who may not be able to work again?

They minimized spending on safety regulations to maximize winnings. How is that not connected to capitalism?

Hire more inspectors? Enforcement is just as important as making the regulations.

Likewise the BBC, who have several Conservatives on their governing board.

The BBC is reporting 'at least 58 killed' because at the moment that is the number of confirmed deaths - and the 'at least' acknowledges that the figure is expected to rise.

The Conservatives on the board have no say whatsoever in the editorial output of the BBC.

The BBC is built on trust- there is no way it would in any way try to hide the real number.

There's a lot of anger at the moment and rightfully so, but suggesting the BBC is downplaying the death toll is just not true.

Death tolls don't work that way, you don't start by saying 500 people died and then reducing the number after each survivor is found. They've still not found the bodies. The number will be way higher than is being currently reported but that's not because of some media led conspiracy.

Not entirely sure you're correct on that. Not a lawyer, but a landlord has to give written notice and the tenant has a right to refuse that for any reason.

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