Can't even think of anything snappy to say. This is just stupid deluxe.
I'm just going to say: please do not assume this is all Turks, by far.
An appropriate comparison might be looking at the FLDS Church in Utah, run by the polygamist child-abuser Warren Jeffs, and concluding that all of America treats their women and children like that.
I am a Turk, born and raised in the U.S., and I have never heard of such a "guide". I come from a traditionally-minded mother, and she has never, ever spoken like this about marriage.
The fact that an MP -a woman, voted into Turkish government- is raising hell about it should speak volumes about how this thing is far from normal or acceptable.
"Stupid deluxe" That's pretty snappy to me.
Vincent: And you know what they call a... a... a Stupid Deluxe in Paris?
Jules: They don't call it a Stupid Deluxe?
Vincent: No man, they got the metric system. They wouldn't know what the fuck a Stupid Deluxe is.
Jules: Then what do they call it?
Vincent: They call it a Royale with cheese.
This kinda shit just boils my blood.
Sure baby, right after you beat me bloody I'm going to get into this new teddy I bought just for the occasion!
Should we keep pretending that it wasn't illegal to beat your wife in the United States until somewhat recently? That women didn't have the right to vote until the 1920s? Should we also keep pretending that there aren't "Christian" politicians in the United States who say that women can't be raped by their own husbands? I don't think that Islam was/is the problem in any of those cases.
What surprises me is that people are still acting surprised that this is being said. Its Turkey, who only recently contemplated allowing rapists to be expunged if they married their victims. Of course we aren't allowed to call out the religion that influences this thinking.
What the fuck.
I don't think anyone believes all Turks are like this, but obviously such a culture exists within Turkey and it isn't some small and isolated group of people on the margins of society (like FLDS is in Utah).
For example, 1/3 of Turkish brides are children upon marriage, meaning it probably isn't unheard of for people to hold very patriarchal views.
Recently the Turkish parliament discussed allowing child rapists to marry their victims, and the Guardian had an article from a Turkish woman discussing this, titled "I was a Turkish child bride. We need to be protected from rapists, not married to them".
Those poor women are so screwed from birth--raised in it and so many of them consider it justified--and the men who propagate this shit are just pathetic.
Exactly. I can never understand the ability of Americans to overlook the horrible things people did/do in the name of Christianity or "family values"
Yup Turkey is by no means all like this. Lots of western countries are dealing with demagogues supported by uninformed citizenry at the moment, same there
If your blood is boiling it might help to reflect on the fact that this was not an official document handed out by the Turkish government. It was handed out in one non-major city in Turkey. And there is no source mentioned in the article at all:
The 394-page manual was said to have been handed to new couples in the city of Kutahya
So now I'll show my cards and reveal that anti-Turkish racism, attempting to smear all Turks or the Turkish nation as a whole by association with this probably non-existent, definitely obscure and powerless document, makes my blood boil a little bit.
Erdogan is shit. Turks are alright.
Edit: slur -> smear
Edit 2: The document was not handed out by the Turkish government, but two obscure provincial governments representing a tiny fraction of the Turkish population--calling this a "Turkish marriage guide" is only true in the most technical sense and is definitely misleading as a headline.
Sounds like a pretty smart idea. Lull them into compliance with sexy clothes and then murder them in their sleep.
I don't think that Islam was/is the problem in either of those cases.
No, but Christianity was. Thankfully we stood up to it.
I don't think you're getting it. The legacy of misogyny and intolerance left by Christianity should motivate us to be especially skeptical and cautious of similar ideologies, like Islam.
Upvoted for not changing the punchline
and the men who propagate this shit are just pathetic.
Couldn't you make the same argument about the men? That it is simply the case that they are raised in it and consider it justified?
This isn't a defense of their actions, merely an appeal to critical thought.
You're allowed if you are not in Turkey. The same way you are allowed to call out other religions for suppressing genetics research due to bronze age retardation. But yes, people get hurt when we criticize religion because they can't handle the reality of death, or the idea of being so very, very wrong their entire life.
It was in fact an official document handed out by the regional government led by the same party - it's a parliament.... It was brought to the attention of international press by the a CHP politician who objected to it - article in Turkish. Another area, Pamukkale, also released a similarly offensive booklet and saying that it's a "non-major city" ignores the often startling rates of approval of domestic violence in Turkey.
The numbers are astounding. I agree that it is bad to essentialize a group of people based off of non-fact facts - but I have lost friends to domestic violence in Turkey and it is an increasingly worrisome problem in the country. Pretending something that was released was not is not a solution to the very serious problem of domestic violence. And yes, this may be a problem in rural areas more than urban areas, but it is a nationwide problem, and increasingly a problem.
I'm just saying this is on a different scale than America. If 1/3 of Turkish brides are children then that's fairly mainstream and normal practice, and different from a few isolated pockets of backwardness like the FLDS.
Something that few people talk about is the demagogues are rising to power with unpopular support. Meaning they are rising and gaining power without major popular support, just pluralities and taking advantage of moderate groups fighting each other. This is how Hitler also rose to power.
They use small numbers, then using the internet, make their numbers appear bigger. They intimidate normal people to "stop discussing politics" (because once intimidated you tend to shut up or get distracted and do other hobbies like reality TV).
Then they end up being the loudest voices on the internet. They make their numbers seem greater. They use fake crowd services (as used by Trump & Erdogan & Putin) to fill out their "pep rallies".
Erdogan even used government's own money to fund "coal packages" to give to rural areas so that they come vote. They even made people swear on religious texts to vote for him.
TL:DR: neo-fascists of the 21st century use every dirty trick in the book, to appear larger, to appear bigger, to appear popular, when they are not even popular. They use identity politics and they've developed propaganda techniques to their advantage. They take advantage of divided-parties and divided-countries.
Conservatives and liberals arguing? calling each other "far left" or "far right"? That gives an advantage to the real far-left and the real far-right to rise to power. Divided they fall.
Just remember that fascists in other countries (and this is how Russian propagandists operate) rose to power through intimidating people away from politics (apathy), and by being mean & loud, until you don't want to argue with them anymore. Nazis started out with less than 50 people. Putin had to make a false flag attack on his own apartment buildings to rise to power. Erdogan was in prison before becoming mayor.
Wouldn't a better policy be to lock up the vicious thugs who beat their wives?
Erdogan is successfully turning Turkey into his personal Islamist state with himself as the eternal dictator. They will be kicked out of NATO and degenerate quickly into an Islamist shithole like all the others if they don't cause WWIII first. Its sad, and it's sad that no one is doing anything about it. His fake coup went off without a hitch even though everyone knew and there was material proof. But it's also true, and I expect over the next 10 years Turkey will imitate other arab islamist dictatorships.
I feel like taking any sort of "traditional" or religious literature from a country in the middle east is just cherry-picking for this sub, at this point. It's still fucked up, but it really isn't surprising, at this point.
It's topical because it's happening. We shouldn't care about these things when they only affect the West. We need to care long before it gets there.
I think it's because we like to think of ourselves as tolerant people when we ignore things that we shouldn't be ignoring
Upvoted for tranferring the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution to workers' union. ಠ_ಠ
Erdogan & co have been actively pandering to more repressive religious types for years and years, to be fair. Not a coincidence this is a former government official. Not all Turks are like this, but Erdogan sure hasn't shied away from those that are.
People didn't stand against Christianity. They stood against wife-beating, whether it was committed by Christians, or in the name of Christianity, or simply not. Christianity didn't become illegal, but beating the shit out of your wife sure did, and these days most self-described Christians will describe the very idea of wife-beating as disgustingly cruel and immoral.
You don't try to cast out Islam. You press on it to evolve by insisting through law and speech that Islam is welcome but immoral practices are not, whether or not people attempt to justify those actions by saying "it's my religion, bro".
Why can't we just admit, however difficult it might be, that Muslim majority countries are worse on treatment of women than Western countries? That doesn't make you a xenophobic right-winger.
What's your point? The more bad of Christianity I see, the more cautious, fearful, and critical of Islam (and religions in general) I will become.
Your argument, "Christianity sucks therefore we should excuse Islam", seems complete nonsense to me. I see it the other way around.
I think he/she is saying that if you divide a religion into the associated, the moderates, and the extremists, then condemn the extremists, you have potentially ignored the evil in the moderates.
The fundamental problem today with our soft view on religion is that not all religions are benign, even in moderate form.
It is very difficult to discuss this problem in modern society. Every idea should be open to criticism, that is called Free Speech.
An appropriate comparison might be looking at the FLDS Church in Utah
No, that's going too far. As the article notes, the guide was handed out by a "former religious affairs department employee" to all newlyweds in two cities, whereas the FLDS is hardly in cahoots with the US government; in fact, the latter has made efforts to shut the former down.
IMO the second anybody starts rounding up intellectuals and university professors and educators on a vast scale, they are preparing for mass brainwashing of some form. Not sayin erdogans an evil dictator, just saying he is about to become one
Are you seriously arguing that the sexism and I justices promoted by Christianity is gone from the modern world?
Of course not, but Christianity is declining (in the countries we live in, at least). Meanwhile Islam is growing in our countries.
My country is ~40% Christian and ~6% Muslim. Christian percentage goes down by several points each census, Muslim percentage doubles each census.
If you don't like the word "legacy" because Christianity isn't completely gone yet, replace with "what was and, to a lesser extent, still is motivated by".
The reason why I said they weren't getting it is because the popular argument "look at this bad thing Christianity did/does, therefore let's ignore what Islam is doing" is nonsense. Christianity and Islam are similar ideologies. If Christianity can do something bad, Islam could do it too. Therefore problems in Christianity should warn us of problems in Islam, not excuse them.
It's hard to look at your own beliefs with the same criticism and skepticism you use for others' but give it a try and you'll be a better, more tolerant person.
If you're implying I'm a Christian, let's be clear that I'm not.
Upvoted for Quentin Tarantino.
Agreed. We should be critical of any race, religion etc. that condones atrocities.
I was thinking the same thing, I feel like so many times when people consider events that happen in different times/places they choose to ignore that fact and put it in the context of their lives instead. While their actions aren't exactly justifiable, they are still cultural norms in lots of Middle Eastern countries, so calling the men pathetic is equivalent to calling the women ignorant. It's the only way that lots of those people know, and the men need to be educated on why this is wrong just as much as the women do
Don't forget the tried and true "I'm a random neutral bystander, and I feel there is no real good candidate, so let's not bother to get involved in this election at all " tactic.
To be fair you can see trends with religions. Catholics countries tend to be more intolerant on abortions and divorce. Muslim countries on gays, gender equality and religous freedom.
Actually, Christians in Nigeria will still kill people, often children, if it is suspected that they are a witch or gay. Please, don't go around preaching your nonsense. You're not as educated and wordly as you think you are.
Don't defend that... 1/3 is not a small pocket.
Isn't it appalling how far Turkey has strayed from what Ataturk tried to achieve?
From a secular democratic scholar to a river hobbit who got horribly warped by the length of time he spent with "the precious" One Ring.
Clearly it's just "being firm with your spouse", same as slapping around children is still considered "being firm with your children" in a lot of western countries.
(/s, I seriously hope nobody needed that made explicit...)
Christianity is not encouraging the killing and/or persecution of other faiths,
We don't always have to reply to these sorts of posts with snark. Sometimes empathy and discussion is required.
Many of us do admit that.
I'm not religious but it really pisses me off when people judge religions by their extreamitst thanks for reminding us that most people celebrate thier religions differently than even others in thier own religion! : )
Actually, you might be the one not getting it if you're referring to it as a legacy. Are you seriously arguing that the sexism and I justices promoted by Christianity is gone from the modern world? It's hard to look at your own beliefs with the same criticism and skepticism you use for others' but give it a try and you'll be a better, more tolerant person.
To be clear, this is a crazy old religious guy. This is not a Turkish problem.
Should we keep pretending that it wasn't illegal to beat your wife in the United States until somewhat recently?
Who is ignoring this? We all know this. Its also not the focus of this article, so doesn't really add to the discussion. What you're doing is called a straw man argument and is designed to draw attention away from the issue at hand: not being allowed to criticize Islam without backlash. Any criticism, however justified is framed as Islamophobia.
Do I seriously need to point out that beating your wife being legal is not the same as the government handing out instruction pamphlets to newly married couples on how and when to beat your wife?
I don't think that Islam was/is the problem in either of those cases.
I don't think anyone is trying to blame those problems on Islam. Are you under the impression that my comment stated that all problems in the world are the result of Islam?
Should we also keep pretending that there aren't "Christian" politicians in the United States who say that women can't be raped by their own husbands?
Is anyone pretending that? And how does that even relate to the article mentioned here? If some dude in the US is a bad person, I'm suddenly not allowed to criticize another bad dude halfway around the world? Your logic is like telling a kid to eat their vegetables because there are starving kids in Africa.
Thank you for proving my point on how difficult it is to have this discussion without being side-railed.
Thankfully the list of countries where hitting children is no longer allowed is growing, but it's still not ubiquitous. When you have presidential candidates still advocating violence against children for "disrespect" clearly civilization still has a long ways to go.
No shit its pretty fucked up
As someone who was a muslim for the past 15 years im going to have to disagree with you
This is why Turkey took the path of secularism and built upon what Atatürk created instead of this religious rhetoric. Oh wait.
The article doesn't indicate that the government was actually behind issuing it; the fired employee, however, was (and may have acted of his own volition).
Now, the fact that an MP -a current govt employee- is calling it into question and gaining traction indicates that this is not how the government normally operates.
The point is currently, today, right now, Christianity is not encouraging the killing and/or persecution of other faiths, particular genders or particular races.
Except maybe when they are
Won't someone think about the poor men who are forced to beat those women! /s
But in reality, you are right. Men are socialized to beat these women, and these women are socialized to react passively. That doesn't suddenly absolve men, as beating someone is a heinous action that requires you to actively make a decision to hurt another individual. The excuse of "oh, I was socialized that way" doesn't really work when we talk about actions, like beating someone.
There is also the whole issue of the fact that since men are the ruling caste here, they are the ones in charge of propagating this socialization - and women just react.
I frequented the most liberal mosque and even then I couldn't escape the violent behavior of the people there were nice people there but even they had dangerous ways of thinking
I got quite a laugh out of that. Upvoted for Pulp Fiction I guess.
Just like Christianity and Catholicism 'used' to be right? You know like priests raping kids, or the hordes of soldiers who raped their way through the crusades and murdered everyone in Jerusalem?
I believe the problem with Islam and it's radicalization is the fact that unlike Catholicism, Islam did not have a meeting like the Nicene meeting for Christianity where the leaders of the religion agreed on what should be included in their teachings and messages to the masses. Instead Islam has fractured (Shiite and Sunni and Wahhabism) and alike early Christians who believed in different things they fight amongst themselves over the message of their religion.
Well, if you said he was an evil dictator today, you wouldn't really be wrong...
Where I live hitting your children could get you in serious trouble. Thugs who think violence is acceptable should be removed from society
If these things exist they should be denounced, and this is what this Turkish MP is doing, and that should be reported in the media. It doesn't matter which level of government did it, it shouldn't be hidden just because it happened in a province, these are real people too.
When my middle-sized Canadian city handed out a guide to new immigrants that was meant to teach them about the Canadian way of life, the media called it racist because it was explaining that they should shower every day and apply deodorant. No, it wasn't happening in a big city, and no, it wasn't issued by the federal government, but people still had the right to denounce it.
It's shocking if a small Canadian city does something racist and it's shocking if a small Turkish city does something misogynistic.
I feel this exactly, and many Turks in the U.S. are alarmed at what's happening but powerless to stop it (they're not voting him in).
The U.S. is in a precarious situation; they obviously need Turkey as an ally and we -Turkey- are a stabilizing force in the middle of chaos.
That said, Erdogan is absolutely using it to his advantage; it's very easy to get people to put up with curtailed rights if they are told to fear for their lives constantly.
Seems to be a problem with religion. We need to separate and keep religion out of the public sphere altogether.
we call them ignorant and bad mothers
well no, not all of us are monsters. Often we do our best to mitigate as much damage as possible by providing resources.
Tbh women are often as likely to hold patriarchal views as men are. Whenever you hear of honour killings or women being beaten for giving birth to a daughter, there are always female members of the family involved.
Look at this video asking random South Africans (of different races and religions) whether wives should submit to their husbands, and plenty of them agreed they should:
And Uganda. These churches are often supported by western missionaries as well.
You've never been to a less developed nation that identifies as Christian, have you?
Not sure how that would make you a xenophobic right-winger; I believe many of us already share this belief?
It kills me; yes. What's worse, it makes other people think Turkey was always this way and is no better than its neighbors...
Domestic violence is a problem everywhere but it is uniquely a problem in Turkey, and you can't ignore a problem in a place by saying it is a problem elsewhere. Nobody here associated domestic violence uniquely with Turks, but the rhetoric that you are using DOES actually legitimize violence against rural women. I'm also not sure that you understand how the Turkish government structures work. Parliamentary systems are set up so that provincial, regional governments parties are controlled by the national party. The AKP that you find ruling Istanbul is not different than the AKP that you find ruling Denizli, and saying they are different ignores some incredibly basic things about Turkey's politics.
The "both candidates are equally terrible" argument is always going to benefit the demagogue.
People can always use religion to justify their personal views by twisting it.
However, women in general all over the world with few exceptions had fewer rights than men. In European history, we at least know exactly how they were treated in the Roman Empire - a polytheist culture, where religion did not play that big of a role when it comes to morality. They basically had no rights at all and first were "property" of their father, then their husband.
Christianity did not manage to do away with that culture right away. But, I wouldn't blame the religion for the oppression of women. The Bible has some clear verses about how the man is the head of the family, but has to love his wife like Jesus Christ loved the church. That is a self-sacrificing love, and it is basically impossible to justify abusing your wife within Christianity. You can only do that if you totally ignore the superclear commandment of love.
I can't tell about Islam. I don't know the Quran that well and don't know what they write about the relationship between women and men.
Also: Interesting fact that the age of enlightenment and basically all the values we consider normal today only prospered within a Christian world. It took a long time for things to gradually get better, but they did. They are not perfect, yet. So much horrible things are still happening, one glance over this subreddit shows us this. But not always are religious people to blame and in the past evil things were also done by people who gave a damn about religion as well as hypocrites who pretended to be devout, but knew nothing about love.
Damn, did E. L. James write that guide?
The men in this case are taking physical action. Women are responding passively.
But these women that believe this is proper are raising their children this way as well...
You must know that marital rape was legal in america till the 70s - early 90s . Its perfectly legit in the bible too.
Please check your facts before you state an ignorant point.
I agree islam is a stupid religion, but all of the major religions are. Just as arab countries are mainly muslim, so is america. Yet its only ever bashing one side.
Yep, every country has its own crazy religious right it seems. Problem is that the Islamic religious right and the Christian religious right have somehow convinced their followers that they're diametrically opposed, so the rest of us are left in the position where if we criticize one, we feel as if we're giving fuel to the other :/
That's very true.
Islam is not the entirety of the problem or even the source.
This article from The Atlantic takes a pretty holistic view of the contributing forces at work in engineering these domineering patriarchal rules of law.
The writer brings up several points like the Ottomans, western rulers in the East, had used male dominance as a bargaining tool to create obedient male followers by offering them complete dominance over women. Then things like genital mutilation that existed before Islam. Like any oppressive law or religious belief it is a political tool and blaming Islam is not enough because it's just as bad and worse in non Muslim countries in Sub-Saharan Africa and ignores the real roots of the issue.
Some Christians are fucking nut cases too.
Let's not lump everyone in a group together based on the actions of a few. The woman decrying this fucked up pamphlet was likely muslim, just like the people who wrote it. Yet she's disgusted with the pamphlet.
Her stance is a load of crap. What empathy should I give her when she's in a position to influence others and uses it to compound the problem for possibly thousands of women living in terrifying circumstances? Discussion, sure, but empathy, not so much.
the problem it seems those crazies are coming out of woodworks after that coup.
These are the same men who tried pass a law that forces child rape victims to marry their rapist. On one side, my blood boils. On the other, I find myself thinking 'Eh, what do I even expect from these sickos.' because I am so frickin tried of this shit.
Also this book was published in 2001 and still sold in bookstores, under the category 'Religion-Mythology'. Personally I think it should be under 'Horror'.
edit: Also it was given to newly-weds in alone city, a rather conservative one than the Western regions. Most of those people already live in that mentality.
No, you couldn't. The men in this case are taking physical action. Women are responding passively.
edit: this whole thread swings between Islamaphobia or 'not all men' devil's advocating. TwoX should've never gone default.
Religion of peace
Didn't we just have a Republican Congressman beat his wife while his (child) son called 911?
People act like domestic violence is a 3rd world problem.
My first instinct was "Fuck this headline". It's purposely inflammatory, breeds ignorance about other cultures, and perpetuates xenophobia.
This isn't about "Turkey" and most of Turkey isn't even close to this level of stupidity. You're right, it's like saying the KKK represents all of USA's opinion on non-white people or that groups like the Westboro Babtist Church represent our religious feelings and beliefs. Catholic Church has had some trouble- do all priests rape kids? Do all Catholics condone it? See what I'm saying..
This. Enough sane people stood up to the insanity. People either won't or can't stand up to Islam.
Which would make them ignorant, right? If a woman in the USA is abused, we tell them to get out of the situation. If they chose to stay and make excuses or defend the man, we call them ignorant and bad mothers for allowing their children in that situation.
No not s turkish problem, but a problem of the Muslim community. Muslims have to reform as soon as possible, and people need to stop ignoring the elephant in the room (without hate of course). Of course individuals often have different views, but misogyny has become a part of traditional/orthodox islamic culture (burka/niqab domestic abuse) and it needs to be removed. I am a muslim so don't even try the "islamophobe" card on me.
I am a Turk, born and raised in the U.S.
Doesn't that make you an American? Not doubting that you know more about Turkish culture than the average American, but this just seemed odd to me.
True, but it is topical because of the migrant crisis.
Saying this document represents all Turks is like saying all Americans are as nuts as a Jack Chick pamphlet
What makes it even worse is that people are going to think that Turkish people are fine with things like this being said. The people here may be Muslim but there not barbaric women here aren't fine with this and neither is a majority of the population here. Abuse in a Muslim country is the same in America and anywhere else in the world.