Because politics has been reduced to football. You support "your team" even through the bad times or else you're not really a fan. It's stupid tribalistic nonsense that is a result of our "first past the post" voting system.
European here. Why in America at the moment, is the party your supporting, more important then the truth. From where we are sitting he is a not so intelligent person who only cares about himself. But half your country doesn't see that because he is Republican. Can someone explain that to me..
This part of the article seems kinda important...
"The people who described the contacts to Reuters said they had seen no evidence of wrongdoing or collusion between the campaign and Russia in the communications reviewed so far."
This is why I lost hope in politics. Aside from the obvious lack of action from those I voted for, there's also the fact that a massive majority of voters just "picked a team" some day and stuck on to it. No matter how bad their candidate may become, they'll just support him or his party. Even worse, as of today any politician can openly say "the media are lying" and their supporters will blindly listen to it. Following Trump's fake news strategy, Marine Le Pen openly said in an interview where the journalist rebuked her with sources and numbers "the number are actually a lie", and her supporters just blindly took it. How are we supposed to improve the system when most of the voting force act like total sheep?
America is probably the biggest example of that, and I still don't know if I should laugh or be sad when I see yet another Trump supporter still mentioning Hillary's emails as an excuse 5 months in Trump's presidency
To put this in context, I'd be curious to see how many undisclosed contacts they had with other countries in the same period.
Perception is reality in life and in politics. If you sneak out of the house every night to hang out with a woman 10 years younger than your wife at a bar and she catches you does it really matter if you didn't do anything wrong?
No the analogy isn't perfect but when you are getting accused of collusion with Russia and it turns out you lied about meetings with Russia nobody is going to be giving much of the benefit of the doubt.
Under Obama, there was a chemical attack in Syria.
Republicans supported military action by Obama at the tune of 22% favoring.
Democrats favored action by 38%.
The same thing happened under Trump.
Republicans favored action at 88%.
Democrats favored it at 37%.
That speaks volumes.
there's also the fact that a massive majority of voters just "picked a team" some day and stuck on to it.
From my experience a lot of people don't even pick a team, they support the same team as their parents without thought.
Edit: this isn't a problem with a 2 party system alone like some people are saying, this is a problem that runs much deeper than that. I live in Ireland and this is a problem that I seen here and I've seen it in the UK as well. This is a problem with the way people think or don't think.
Frankly, I have a hard time picturing how Trump voters sleep at night. Trump is the single most traitorous individual to hold a high position (the highest sadly) in the history of the country and his crookedness showed well before Nov 8. He is an enemy of the state who regards the separation of powers as a hindrance and not an asset, like any authoritarian leader for that matter.
While we don't have that, we do have this:
“It’s rare to have that many phone calls to foreign officials, especially to a country we consider an adversary or a hostile power,” Richard Armitage, a Republican and former deputy secretary of state, told Reuters.
The key words here are: "it's rare." This seems suspicious because it's rare and it's coming from an administration that is about as opaque as it gets, to the point that they are trying to shut down investigations into the very same interactions that are revealed here. Maybe it's nothing, but maybe it's not. Trying to hide stuff sure makes it seem like there's something there though, doesn't it? That's just common sense.
If the Trump administration wants to remedy this, they could be more transparent. But they're going in the opposite direction. The buck stops with the President period. This victim complex they've adopted works for their base, but for the rest of us, we want to see the country run well and scandals avoided. Unfortunately, the country isn't being run well very clearly, and it almost seems like they are courting scandal after scandal.
As an American- I don't get it either. My parents voted Trump out of fear of what Hillary would do. In my mind Hilary at her absolute worst would be better than this.
By sitting in their echo chambers and pretending this isn't happening while they scream about a dead guy despite his family telling them not to.
Same as they do their Religion. It's very divided by population. Densely populated areas tend to be progressive and the more rural areas are conservative. Only a small minority go against their tribe, and those that do often relocate.
I have a couple of friends very close to politics.
I was made fun of once for being a 'swing voter'...
ISNT THAT HOW VOTING IS MEANT TO WORK!?
Hell my mom even questioned me in this last election, "you weren't raised Democrat." She just can't even understand how someone can switch.
She voted Trump because, "that's who I'm supposed to vote for." No care at all for policy, just party.
Yeah, I'm having trouble with this concept too. Even if literally everything that the right wing said about Hillary was true (including the insane conspiracy theories) she would still look preferable to Trump in terms of basic competency. And despite urging from people right, left, and center that we give Trump a chance, he's shaped up pretty much exactly like the majority of liberals expected he would.
So the only reasonable conclusion is that republican voters simply don't care about a candidate's fitness for office at all. The only things they care about are whether a candidate will support a conservative legislative agenda and appoint conservative judges.
I thought I was about to learn an awesome new word until I realized you misspelled "president"
still gonna use it though
So the democrats have principles in which they stick to them while the republicans don't?
Perception is reality in life and in politics
I would like to introduce you to pfesixent President Donald Trump, because it seems you missed the last 18 months of news.
The people who described the contacts to Reuters said they had seen no evidence of wrongdoing or collusion between the campaign and Russia in the communications reviewed so far. But the disclosure could increase the pressure on Trump and his aides to provide the FBI and Congress with a full account of interactions with Russian officials and others with links to the Kremlin during and immediately after the 2016 election.
Still nothing damning yet. This story isn't even close to being over.
It is important. Its also important to note that this is "highly unusual... particularly with a hostile power". Frankly, Trump hasnt done much to engender trust or the credit of good intention. Innocent till proven guilty, sure, but his own actions and statements have made every thing he says completely untrustworthy. So, yeah... its a bit of a concern.
And you can thank the ma who just died for that. Roger Ailes.
Rarely do I say this, but the world is a better place without him.
This is something I feel is being overlooked with all the Russia drama, good point.
What an amazing time to be alive with this orange man in a white house.
Genuinely asking, when is enough enough? To a Dane/European/foreigner like myself this is beyond mystic that nobody has been putting a stopper to this maniac. When people where I am from and without any idea of how versatile the american people is describes an American, they usually say that they're all patriotic rednecks. Yet these nationalistic patriots keep defending him - the guy who is the defender of all values that is not theirs. It all makes so little sense..
Or be like a lot of the people around me
"The Clinton's have people killed regularly so I don't want them in office, they'll just continue doing what Obama did and bring Muslims into the nation!"
Not always, but no wild swings like that either in most things.
Patriotism is skin deep in the US.
Everyone loves to fly flags and say they love their country but really people just like being able to say whatever they want and shoot guns. Our attention span is too short to care, our financial debts are too high in order to protest, and Trump is surrounded by enough Republicans who don't give a damn.
Basically your parents tried to impose their beliefs and politics into* you while you were growing up. They refused to let you decide for yourself. Basically it's a form of indoctrination.
This is an important point. It's normal and common for campaign staff to have contact with foreign diplomats during campaigns. People here are acting as if the mere fact that they talked to Russians is somehow impeachable. It's not.
What is beyond the norm, however, is the nondisclosure. The large number of contacts, the fact that Flynn and Manafort made money from Russia and didn't disclose it, and Trump's pattern of firing people who are investigating the Russian angle moves things well beyond business as usual.
But isn't it already illegal to not disclose the contacts?
Headline designed to make you think there was something wrong, but article clearly says, "The people who described the contacts to Reuters said they had seen no evidence of wrongdoing or collusion between the campaign and Russia in the communications reviewed so far."
Just like how a politician who gets new information and changes a stance is a flip flopper? I want that damn it! I want someone who can think critically in a place of power!
If 2016 was the year of beloved celebrity deaths, can 2017 be the year of greedy & corrupt fuckers dying?
Worst bit was when people wouldn't vote Bernie because even though they liked him, "he can't win."
Like... What? Why would you have to vote for the winner? Voting is a sport now.
Edit: I meant in the primaries guys. Obviously voting for Bernie in the general would be a bad idea, but voting Hillary in the primaries because you think Bernie can't beat her in the primaries is idiotic.
Edit 2: I'm not saying you have to vote for Bernie, guys. I really fucked up the presentation of this point. All I'm saying is there were some people who I knew preferred Bernie's policies but voted Clinton because they thought Bernie would never get enough votes to get past the primary, which is a whole black pot of irony. People develop the mindset that they need to vote for the winner. Somehow people are still messaging me saying I was dumb for casting a protest vote... I voted Hillary in the general.
"There was actually another Washington Post-ABC News poll that tested views of what the United States should do in response to Syria using chemical weapons. It came in December 2012 — before the 2013 chemical weapons attack. It was a hypothetical.
The question: “What if the Syrian government uses chemical weapons against its people? In that case would you support or oppose U.S. military involvement in Syria?”
In response to this question, fully 67 percent of Republicans said they would support military involvement."
Their wording in this article confuses me.. establish back door connections to bypass us intelligence/no evidence of wrongdoing.
Anyone read the article?? "The people who described the contacts to Reuters said they had seen no evidence of wrongdoing or collusion between the campaign and Russia in the communications reviewed so far. " Exactly, the biggest witch hunt in history!
I have no issue with him trying to mend fences with Russia. I do have issue with doing things behind the nations back with Russia and not being up front with us about what he is doing.
Autocorrect has abandoned me.
Inconvenient truths are "fake news" now. Or simply, if you don't want to believe something you can find someone who will confirm what you do want to believe (see climate change debate).
Surely some of his supporters see him as an imperfect vehicle for their views. He's on their team, so no matter what he's already better than a liberal. He has sown the seeds of distrust for media so now they will defend him by saying the news is fake or that this is a witch hunt, that he's being treated unfairly, or at the extreme end, that he's the victim of a consipiracy by the Jews (not joking). To whatever degree, this is the truth as they see it.
"However those who talked with Reuters about the ties say there was no evidence of collusion."
While there's no fire yet, I'm suffocating from all this smoke.
Most politicians accused of flip flopping just change what they say based on who they're talking to or what seems to be popular at the moment.
I can understand that, but at the same time the last few Presidents all tried to smooth over relations with Russia. Obama had the "Russian reset" which was a failure. Bush brought Putin up to Maine and went fishing with him for the weekend in 2007(iirc). They said they found common ground, but the relationship was quite contentious apparently. Trump said the relationship between he and Putin might fail miserably, but he wanted to try. I really don't have an issue with at least trying. Most politicians are full of shit, Trump isn't special in that regard. Yes the thought of potential collusion between Trump-Putin influencing the election is concerning, but at the same time there hasn't been anything resembling that yet. Reuters sources, Diane Feinstein, James Clapper have all said there is nothing so far.
I'd agree with you if there was any evidence that we learn from past mistakes. this is idiocracy.
That's especially funny because so many of the silly, sexist concerns people have about female politicians are valid concerns for Trump. I can't picture a woman having worse mood swings, being more irrational...for Donald, it's always that time of the month. He's bleeding out of his you know what...
Please Rupert next
BUT HOW DO YOU SLEEP KNOWING THAT!
Absolutely agree with you there. My family did the same thing, and now I feel like I can't even have conversations with these type of people who blindly support this absolute insanity
Fucking single issue voters.
The ridiculous part is that he's not even really a "real" Republican. He's a former Democrat who switched over because he had a higher chance of winning as a Republican. Many Republicans rejected him at first when he was running in the primaries.
He is also one of the most godless men to ever walk the earth, and yet somehow the fundamentalist Christian right seems to think he's the Second Coming of Jesus after 10 minutes of lip service.
The great irony of this party line crap is that Trump isn't a part of it, he's just the benefactor. The only interests he's ever looked out for were his own. We have decades of evidence of this, and yet somehow despite "the media being against him," he's been spun into this ultimate Republican.
So basically 37-38% of Democrats are consistently interventionist, regardless of who is President? Meanwhile Republicans are crazy-swinging depending on whether or not they have the office.
It's American idiocracy at its finest.
Question from an interested French guy: what would "raised Democrat" mean? I don't understand what "raised [political party]" can possibly mean
If you sneak out of the house every night to hang out with a woman 10 years younger than your wife at a bar and she catches you does it really matter if you didn't do anything wrong?
This is a good analogy, for two reasons:
1) Let's face it, you probably were doing something wrong or intended to. The odds of it being innocent are infinitesimal. You could be that one in a million, but you don't get to give any attitude if someone is suspicious.
2) No matter what your intentions were, that's not the kind of thing you keep secret. Your best hope of looking innocent is to disclose what you're doing, not to be discovered accidentally.
No its not illegal. Do you not think a single member of the Obama/Bush/Clinton/etc administration communicated with Russia, and every other country for that matter?
I'm in the same boat, I'm going fishing with my dad (voted trump) his dad (voted trump) and my brother (voted Hillary) and I almost canceled. My gramps is apparently at the point where my grammies can't even talk to him about politics.
I've often felt that I can let this stuff slide, they are family after all, but at this point, they are aligning themselves with hate, bigotry, and country destructive forces (think Pruitt EPA and Devos education, destroying institiuons)EDIT, I cannot just look the other way anymore and barely talk to them.
If I found out my dad was a rapist, that would be it, we wouldnt talk, I would let that "get in the way of family" becuase it is awful. This is where our current politics are, I think. This isnt "more taxes/less taxes" this is on the level of "this person is less than me" type stuff.
Picking a team implies at least a modicum of thought. Having your team chosen for you could mean that you personally have given the matter no thought whatsoever. I'd prefer the person that used their own faculties and came up with the wrong answer to the person that just gobbled down whatever shit sandwich they were handed with a smile on their face.
"The people who described the contacts to Reuters said they had seen no evidence of wrongdoing or collusion between the campaign and Russia in the communications reviewed so far." This is located in the article linked. Maybe if you read the story instead of just the headline, you'd see this is just a grab piece.
Still waiting for evidence of Trump-Russian collusion.
I've had multiple middle-aged women scream at me in the last year that a woman is not capable of doing the job of President. It's really scary, because what do they think of themselves?
I didn't vote for Trump, but I think his presidency might actually be good for America. I am hoping he is the catalyst for the majority of Americans seeing how broken our political system is and to continuously pester politicians until something is done about it. I mean our president obviously colluded with a foreign power to influence our election and it remains to be seen if Congress will even do anything about it.
Because we have a single-round of voting. If we had a system like the French have, we could have voted whoever we wanted and not have to worry in round 1 about Trump.
I have a friend who voted for Trump simply because of how Hillary stood in regard to abortion. He knew Trump would be a train wreck, but he believed it was better than someone who was okay with abortion.
Nah, what really hurt her was twenty years of GOP propaganda that she's the Antichrist.If Benghazi angered conservatives why aren't they up in arms about Trump's military action that needlessly got a Navy Seal killed? If her mishandling of classified documents was the problem why isn't Trump being crucified blabbering about code-word information? If her husband's infidelity is such a problem why is a misogynistic pussy grabber in chief who admittedly cheats on his spouse okay?
The GOP loves to demonize their opponents. Ask any conservative about their views on Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, or Elizabeth Warren and their face will crunch up with utter contempt. Then ask them why they hate those people and they won't even have a good answer.
Yeah I also found your two choices pretty bad... but here is the thing I don't understand... It seems so many people aren't happy with the current two party system. I mean their are more independent voters than ever before, right? So even many people can't unite behind a party, people could fight for a better vote system. Get rid of your FPTP voting system and embrace proportional representation. So many problems would be solved if the big two parties had competition from smaller parties.The vote from conservatives in a blue state wouldn't be wasted and vice versa. No gerrymandering anymore. Lesser corruption and bribing because people could vote another (for them acceptable) alternative.
The two party system doesn't work and fails to represent a big chunk of the society. I bet there are many republican voters who don't care about removing gay rights (as an example). Like many people aren't that racist. But because there is only one conservative party and no way to distant themselves from the fringe voices, they will automatically normalize the statements from actual racists in the party. The same goes for the democrats. There so much blind partisanship because "we have to be united or the other bigger evil wins".
I swear the two party system will be Americas downfall someday... I doubt that the gap between the people will close with FPTP.. rather the opposite.
Well I'm not even talking about the negative effects of a conservative legislative agenda on conservative voters, which is an issue separate from Trump. I fully expect that even if republicans recover from their Trump dementia this will continue to be a thing for them.
In terms of general competence, level of corruption, trustworthiness, health, handling of classified information and intelligence - Trump supporters had numerous conspiracy theories and propaganda pieces. Even if all of those were true, Trump has actually managed to establish himself as being worse. So obviously the right wing doesn't really care about any of those things, they just thought they made convenient ammunition to use against a democrat.
In my case its been reduced to just a single issue.
Prior to this election my parents always voted republican because they had strong feelings against abortion.
I now always vote democrat because I don't want Earth to become a fireball. In my mind, all other issues fall behind that one topic.
I'm not American, but I would rather place my trust in someone who has dedicated their entire professional career, including my entire lifetime, towards the government and law as the President. I know people disagree, and I know she isn't perfect and made mistakes, but I just can't see how you can look at these two people and decide someone who's entire life has just been doing absolutely nothing of worth should be President.
As a reasonable lurker of /sub/the_donald and big Trump fan. Let's get to the bottom of this already. If there isn't anything there, carry on. If there is evidence. To hell with him. Kick him out of office. I want the fucking truth already.
The two party system works incredibly well... For politicians actively working in the two parties. For everyone else (99.999 percent of the country) its total shit
You're focusing on the minority of Democrats and the majority of Republicans.
The majority of Democrats are non-iterventionist regardless who's president. For the majority of Republicans it's entirely conditional on if their guy's in office.
So why did trump try to shut down the investigation. At this point it doesn't matter whether or not there's collusion. He's guilty of obstruction of justice.
Chris Cornell died today. Sorry.
VOTE JOE EXOTIC
The best answer I can give is it's like being a sports fan to Americans. You were brought up rooting for the republicans and democrats are your rivals. Most Americans really don't pay attention to the issues, just to which team is winning.
Many people I know who voted for Trump did so as a "we only have two really terrible choices, and he is the lesser evil"
Now that he's in office, the American people can't do anything. It's up to Congress, where both houses are controlled by Republicans, to start investigations and impeachment. But since Trump has no idea what he's doing, the Republicans in Congress are just having him pass whatever they want, which makes him very valuable.
Thankfully, the Deputy Attorney General assigned an investigator that Trump can't fire, and one who actually seems to want to find the truth. So at least there's somebody who actually cares about justice.
People are fucking idiots.
Because of the way first past the post voting works, voters have to vote strategically if they want the best results. For example -
Candidate A - Disagrees with me (the voter) on every point.
Candidate B - Agrees with me on everything .
Candidate C - Agrees with me on most things, but not all.
If Candidate C has a better chance of beating Candidate A in an election, then it is in my best interest to vote for them rather than the candidate I would prefer, because even though C is not as good as B, C is better than A.
It's nothing but strategic choices to ensure the best possible outcome for yourself, and it is caused by the election system we use.
I have a hard time picturing how someone who doesn't even read the articles they comment on can have such an extreme view of Trump supporters. It never ceases to amaze me what the people on this site will believe based on some clickbait headlines.
And my dog died last week. She was my favorite celebrity. RIP Snow :(
Most of the voters who still back him are hardcore 4chan meme-rs or really old people who think certain folks shouldn't belong in certain diners. That's what I've gathered anyway.
Edit: Seriously. I used the word "most" not "all". Once again, people getting angry about nothing. But please keep commenting. It's making my day better.
It's just crazy that somehow the Republicans have branded themselves the party of working class, rural pickup drivers, despite their every policy favoring the very wealthy. I wouldn't be surprised if the paid country music singers a marketing fee. YVAN EHT NIOJ.
I sleep great. Numerous unnamed sources have assured me that everything is a-ok.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 86%. (I'm a bot)
WASHINGTON Michael Flynn and other advisers to Donald Trump's campaign were in contact with Russian officials and others with Kremlin ties in at least 18 calls and emails during the last seven months of the 2016 presidential race, current and former U.S. officials familiar with the exchanges told Reuters.
Six of the previously undisclosed contacts described to Reuters were phone calls between Sergei Kislyak, Russia's ambassador to the United States, and Trump advisers, including Flynn, Trump's first national security adviser, three current and former officials said.
Members of the Senate and House intelligence committees have gone to the CIA and the National Security Agency to review transcripts and other documents related to contacts between Trump campaign advisers and associates and Russian officials and others with links to Putin, people with knowledge of those investigations told Reuters.
Ok we fucking get it. Everybody hates Drumpf - rah rah rah insert sabre rattle
Prove this conclusively and do something about it or shut the fuck up. I mean for Christ's sake Raegan caught less shit for the Iran-Contra affair and that was proven to be true -_-
I don't even like Trump, but I'm tired of reading about the same old same old. The media is really lazy these days.
Media logic: Step 1) Bash political opponents Step 2) Find "evidence" of wrong doing Step 3) Make millions from the sheeple who consume my "News"
Edit: Seriously I don't even need to open the article, somebody want to tell me house close I am?
Tl;dr: Blah blah blah Trump blah blah blah Putin blah blah 2016 campaign blah blah Michael Flynn blah blah White House blah Kremlin blah told us here at Reuters blah blah advisors blah blah said blah
People think politicians talking to another country is a bad thing now because it's Trump.
This is click bait. The article clearly says, "The people who described the contacts to Reuters said they had seen no evidence of wrongdoing or collusion between the campaign and Russia in the communications reviewed so far."
Your issue is believeing more than 20% of the American households raise their children with basic "decency" much less political decency.
I'm an American, and neither do I. My parents are conservative, but they also had the decency to not air their political beliefs in front of impressionable children no matter what side they were on.
No, the really scary part is your username
ISA. Church. Family. School. Apparatuses of the state's ideology
You just had a quick stroke is all
Shhhh just read the headline and get outraged damn it!
Genuinely asking, when is enough enough?
When there is actual wrong doing to back up claims by "anonymous sources" and sensationalist headlines inferring something is bad when its innocuous.
"The people who described the contacts to Reuters said they had seen no evidence of wrongdoing or collusion between the campaign and Russia in the communications reviewed so far."
This is in the article is you havnt read it. Now, look at the title and all the top replies. This is pretty much how it is in every article about his "scandals". The title infers some terrible thing. The desperate commenters who are as predictable as can be ignore the article and confirm their beliefs of the title and then at the very end of the article, deep in the pictures, "Oh and officials say that the actions of Mr. Trump, although appearing bad, are in line with other presidents, and are actually standard procedure and 100% normal."
This is why.
Edit: really listen to what I said and please don't ignore us because "well the other side does it..." The coordinated effort against at this president within the first 5 months is unprecedented here and is obviously a huge red flag
He wasn't President yet and his campaign staff were just that - campaign staff. That's akin to saying they were truck drivers or grad students or kindergarten teachers. For them to negotiate on behalf of their country is illegal, deeply unethical, and demonstrates a level of hubris that should make us all nervous. It's that hubris folks hate about Hillary, so this should outrage the Right more than anyone.
The stumbling block in all our attempts at better relations with Russia is that they are assholes, and all previous attempts have failed because we held the Russians accountable for their behavior. Trump's 'moving forward' involves forgiving previous evil behavior, signing oil deals, and pooping in our allies' mouths. It's humiliating.
GOP has principles, just not the ones they say to get votes. Those are outright lies. It's the "fuck you, i got mine, and ill have some more you pleb" wrapped in a "praise jesus, guns, and low taxes!" candy shell.
ding ding ding we have a winner
Trump is the single most traitorous individual to hold a high position
How has he exactly committed treason?
Is the secret meetings or intelligence he provided?
Hillary was a really bad candidate. Better than trump, but she also ran a shit campaign. People overlook a lot of things in hindsight, and blame it entirely on whatever they want, but it was a lot of things coming together.
But Hillary's campaigning was god awful, and the DNC leak was really bad. Add into the fact that she was established and disliked before the campaign started and it's a good recipe to lose.
You look at those people as a potential voter and then one of them effectively calls you irredeemable, and then doesn't campaign in your state... well honestly it isn't that surprising that she lost.
In a vacuum with neither candidate campaigning then yes. Hillary should win. But in the reality of politics a lot of what matters is the way that the campaign goes and hers went incredibly poorly.
what are you doing? you are supposed to read the title only not the article
The thing is Trump hasn't done anything yet that would affect his voters. Shit might hit the fan though if the AHCA goes through.
We are on reddit too, watch some fox news (please dont) and see how they see the world to try and get some sense of things.
'Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.' - George Carlin
'The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter' - Churchill
I always think the simpsons episode w/ the bear patrol did it best. The mayor enacts a bear tax, to appease the voters scared of bear attacks, but then needs to respond to the hate of raising taxes. so he naturally just blames immigrants. The average voter wants an easy answer and trump is full of them.