# Third time's a charm

This is literally doofenshmirtz.

"If I had a nickel for every time I was doomed by a puppet, I'd have 2 nickels.

I know it's not very much but still it's weird that it happened twice"

What's really weird is aeris couldn't even take it once

I'm still amazed at Sephie's arm strength. I mean, that's full arm extension + what, 6 feet?

I mean... Dude had delusions of godhood for a damn reason.

She took the full thing Cloud just got the tip

Unexpected Phineas and Ferb reference.

Using the equation F = (WX)/L And Cloud's Height of 5'7, we can actually calculate that.

5'7 = 170.18cm. In the second picture, he's 86 pixels tall, which gives us a distance per pixel of 1.97cm per pixel. We'll call it 2cm for ease.

The distance between Cloud and Sephiroth's shoulder is 170 pixels or 3.4 meters.

Next, we have to work out Cloud's approximate weight. This is difficult to do, so I'm going to use the weights given for the US Marines, at age 23 (advent children), according to this chart, putting him at 169 lbs or in real units, 76.6571 kg.

Now, the sword. It's hard to quantify, so I'm going to work out the approximate volumn of the blade and call it a day. It's 68 pixels (136 cm) long from hilt to the edge of the bevel, 15 (30cm) across and I'm going to approximate, that it's around 5cm thick, based on the hilt. That gives us a volume of 19,500 cubic centimeters of steel. Next we have the triangle which makes up the bevel. Using Pythagoras, it gives us a volume of approximately 1,950 cubic centimetres for a total of 21,450 cubic centimetres.

One of the best metals for big, heavy swords today is AISI 5160 steel, which has a density of around 7.85g/cm3. If Cloud's sword is made of AISI 5160, it would weigh 168.3825 kg or for the Americans, 371.21 pounds. Holy fuck! (And yes, I know the sword was made of multiple swords so it won't be a solid mass, but I'm working with what I got, ok?)

So Cloud + his sword total up to 245.03 kg or 540.21 lbs.

Now, we can feed those numbers into our equation.

F = (245.03 x 3.4)/1 (Since Sephiroth's shoulder IS the pivot there's not length here, so L=1). So to be able to just hold Cloud there, Sephiroth needs to be holding 833kg of weight with JUST HIS SHOULDER MUSCLES.

And that's before we add in the weight of his own sword but because I know of no metal which could take the strain it's under, with that thin of a blade, I have no way to calculate it's weight.

Edit: Just let me add that the amount of wrist strength might be even more impressive. The should has way more supporting tissue and higher bone masses supporting it, but the force at the wrist won't be vastly less than the force at the shoulder.

Edit: My maths is WRONG. I misunderstood the equation and u/OskEngineer corrected me here

And by unexpected I mean completely expected!

Activates trap-inator

Sephiroth lifts.

Lifts clouds.

Wow, Spoiler Alert dude. I've been on the fence for 20 years but now I don't even need to play it. Thanks a lot OP.

just the tip

DOOFENSHMIRTZ EVIL INCORPORATED!

Risky click confirmed.

You seem like a smart person who makes sense. I'm not gonna try to contest those numbers.

Sephiroth was just making sure Cloud stayed true to his name.

Maybe he just won't let them.

It's comments like these that remind that I actually don't understand FF7's storyline at all. I get so confused anytime anything involves JENOVA. Like its a shock every time for me when I re-re-re-remember that the Sephiroth you're chasing around during the game isn't actually Sephiroth.

Don't worry, his shoes are still on so he good

yeah, FF7 was pretty bizarre with its lore, and the graphics made it even harder.

every time you confront a "sephiroth" in the game--and it does happen several times--you fight part of JENOVA. I think that makes it clear that what you're actually fighting is released chunks of the JENOVA that escaped back in the beginning of the game, disguised to look like Sephiroth.

actual sephiroth is only seen in the flashbacks to Nibelheim and in the northern cave itself in the endgame. everything else is a clone he's controlling, or JENOVA bits that he's controlling. and that is kinda-sorta revealed but not explicitly laid out, so ten year old me was like 'wtf?'

Because there's no graphical scene showing them mutate into JENOVA when you confront "Sephiroth", the player doesn't necessarily understand why you're suddenly fighting this big blob-monster. Does the modern FF7 re-release show this? That would be a huge improvement to assist in player understanding.

What I'll never be 100% clear on is whether those "Sephiroths" you face were the clones made by Hojo, pieces of the escaped JENOVA, or both at once.

Aeris isn't full of Jenova cells.

Masamune ain't no bitch ass sword. Masamune is a man's sword.

This sounds familiar. Is this a Phineas and ferb reference or am I just losing it.

I heard the jingle and everything.

This is literally doofenshmirtz.

DOCTOR Doofenshmirtz!

It's apparently a Doofenshmirtz quote.

If I'm not mistaken, it's Crises Core and Advent Children

/sub/theydidthemath

Yea, I only realized this recently when reading a plot synopsis. I always thought Sephiroth had JENOVA with him and left it to fight when he was encountered.

Having three sons, I've watched a lot more of P&F than any adult probably should. And I must say, it's an incredibly funny show. I love how they added a good bit of adult humor in it for parents who watch stuff with their kids.

Well maybe I'm a bit heartless, but I was enraged that...that bastard took out my healer. The character was oh that was sad, but you mother fucker you messed up my straits! For me just started a new game and never used Aeris so the impact was much less gameplay wise.

Was totally expecting the page in the manual with everyone's height and weight and other useless crap.

If they've earned a doctorate, yes.

Nearly clicked in work, thanks for the heads up...

I'm amazed how strong the sword is too, to support all that weight.

I prefer this theory

Nobody has answered so I will. This is VERY shortened. There are missing elements.

Lifestream is basically making shit on earth.

Jenova arrives from the sky as a sort of Alien symbiote to drink said lifeforce.

Jenova kills most of the Cetra who are defending the lifeforce - some Cetra defeat and hide it in a crater.

2000 years later....

Mako (lifestream) extracted from the earth and used as power source.

Experiments on and with "Ancient" (Jenova) - all failures, nothing recreated as Hojo wants. Injects his wife with Jenova cells at the fetal stage, Sephiroth born with prodigious strength and talent. Raised to believe he is a S.O.L.D.I.E.R, but always feels way more powerful than everyone else.

Hojo then tries to recreate Sephiroth but fails, creates "clones" and tries to recreate Sephiroth by experimenting with Cloud.

Sephiroth discovers Jenova is his "mother" and goes ballistic, defeating and causing the vegetative state of Zack (S.O.L.D.I.E.R who is given "Mako" cells to be stronger), but then is killed by Cloud ("failed" experiment of Hojo from Jenova cells) who then takes up Zacks identity due to having none himself.

Jenova cells reawakened by Sephiroth (somewhere in the North Crater) escape but kills President Shinra first for imprisoning his body in the wastes of the North Crater.

Sephiroth projects his image when controlling Jenova parts. (but then the party fights parts of Jenova manifested in Birth, Life, Death and Synthesis)

Sephiroth kills the last remaining Cetra (Aeris) with (what he thinks is) the power to stop him (White Materia or "holy")

Cloud is controlled by Sephiroth because of his Jenova cells. Gives him "black" materia to summon meteor.

Cloud almost dies and is reawakened into the lifestream, realises that Aeris knew she had to die for the planet in the end to join the lifestream. Everyone who lives and dies on earth is connected to the lifestream and as such it lives in everyone.

Party then fights Sephiroth (after Jenova's final form - Synthesis) to stop meteor by releasing his hold on holy. Killing Sephiroth doesn't stop meteor. Sephiroths ultimate plan was for meteor to cause the planet to heal itself with the lifestream.

Lifestream comes up and stops meteor anyway - always would have thanks to Holy. Aeris had already called Holy and Sephiroth was blocking it.

Note: Sephiroth and Avalanche actually have similar ideals. Both know that sucking the lifestream from the planet is harmful, although Avalanche want it for balance and nature to exist while Sephiroth needs it all so the planet can "heal" and he can rise up as a god on his new planet.

Edit: Corrected that Zack was not killed by Sephiroth but merely "defeated" (even though FF7 does nothing to dispell Sephiroth killing Zack and only in Crisis Core is this apparent)

Edit 2: Christ, all these corrections! Should be accurate now.

Nobody but him can fucking weild the thing. I never was quite sure what that meant: nobody can for lack of skill based on length, lack of physical strength, or just plain old magic a la Thor's hammer.

There are some critical pieces to understand that the game does not make clear (as far as I'm concerned).

-When Cloud left Nibelheim for Midgar he fails to make SOLDIER, and is instead just a regular old grunty grunt. Later when he meets up with Tifa and Avalanche, he lies and/or is confused about that. He mixes his own history up with someone named Zach who was in SOLDIER. The Buster sword is even Zach's originally.

-The flashbacks/story parts where Cloud and Sephiroth go to Nibelheim to investigate the reactor are colored by Cloud's lies/memory as well. Zach was there too but Cloud puts himself in Zach's shoes in his explanations. Tifa didn't even realize Cloud was there because he was wearing his mask and had his face covered.

-During that flashback, when Sephiroth discovers he's some sort of Jenova monster clone person and goes crazy, Cloud manages to throw Seph into something called the Lifestream. The Lifestream carries Seph to the northern crater where he stays

-Every other time during the game, when Cloud meets Seph it's not actually Seph. Seph is in the crater. What Cloud runs into are Jenova chunks or whatever.

-After the fight at Nibelheim, Zach and Cloud are taken by Hojo for experimentation. They are injected with Jenova cells. They escape and Zach is killed. Cloud takes the sword and FF7 begins.

Some guy:"hey Seph....what you got there?

S:"Masamune"

G:"Oh nice. Can I hold it?"

S:"Whatever"

hits tree, gets stuck

S:"every fucking time. I'm not doing this shit anymore"

honestly, it should be units of torque for the moment he calculated. plus the vertical load which is just the weight (without any distance figured in)

torque is like how strongly something can turn a shaft. if you're using a car as an example, it would be how hard it is to twist a driveshaft to get it to accelerate.

for some perspective, a Corolla has ~125 ft lb of torque, a Corvette has ~400-600 ft lb depending on engine, and 6000 ft lb is in the realm of a large semi/tractor trailer.

(fyi u/caridor)

Cheryl: It tastes worse than it smells!

Pam: Man, if I had a nickel for every time I heard a guy say that... I'd have eight nickels!

Both of them.

jingle.

We all heard the

-inator

yes her big beautiful round.. smile...

12 year old me did not understand this story at all beyond big meteor come crash if don't get holy.

Where did all these screenshots come from?

god damn it now I want to watch advent children again.

not for the swords or anything, just to see tifa smile

I actually clicked in work, but thankfully my brain processed the risky click comment before it loaded.

VAPE NATION

Phrasing boom

Are pharmacists referred to as "doctor?"

Just trying to upload his cloud

Fool me once, a nickel for me.

Fool me twice, another nickel for me.

Experimentation effects, Jenova cells, Japanese story telling tropes.

After hours.....

Sooo Perry the Platipus. I bet you're wondering why I brought up the Spanish Inquisition. Well it all started when I was a boy...

Flashback Initiates

"smile"

Spoilers again!

That's still a meeting with HR.

It's all over now, Cloud has the high ground.

I could be a fucking garbage man for a living, but if I have a doctorates, you call me Doctor Garbage Man.

Are we still doing phrasing?

Ohhhhhh snap. Shit that scene though, probably the biggest shocker I've had up to this point still in gaming

this video

Ah, he has been at the forefront of my mind recently because of being stuck in my head.

Do you remember the Reunion, and when you go to the crater you see Sephiroth suspended in ice? That is the real Sephiroth who has been there since his battle with Cloud (I think, I only played FF7, so I don't know if any of the other movies/games changes this). All of the other Sephiroths are Jenova projections.

It also explains why Cloud has such physical problems when he runs into any version of Sephiroth, because it isn't Sephiroth at all, it is Jenova. Cloud has Jenova cells in his body so whenever he is around her, cue headaches and weirdness.

Amazing how many variations there are though

I was wondering when an actual engineer would correct me.

Thank you.

I don't think anybody ever tried just asking.

I love the series too. It's hilarious and I would love watching it. That, Teen Titans, Pokemon, and Danny Phantom.

By the way...

'I know what we're going to do today.'

'MOOOOM! PHINEAS AND FERB ARE BUILDING A ROLLER COASTER!'

'Aren't you too young to build a roller coaster?' 'Yes, yes I am.'

'Perrriiiiiiiiiii~'

I wouldn't even be ashamed, that show is pretty great.

I worked in a video store while in high school and have watched a fair share of crap kids television because we had to screen movies that were reported for errors. Kids DVDs usually got pretty bad treatment so I ended up having to watch more of those. Stuff like the barbie movies, I swear junk like that makes kids more dumb than they need to be.

Whatever you do, don't look at the back of the games CD case.

Hey farva, what's the calamity from the skies with the blue skin and the trying to destroy the world shit?

Well your math wasn't wrong you just solved the wrong equation. I'll give it a C- because it will show up later in the test.

LOOK. No one is to stone ANYONE until I give the word.

Even if they do say Jenova.

pelted with rocks

Yeah that was me too! I was like 12 and spent the whole first disc making Aeris a bomb ass healer, then she just fucking dies! It was rough going for a bit in disc 2.

Where is the monster math bot?

Holy shit he's gone.

And it happens once to Aerith and it's game over for her. Yeah and just forget about the 96 Phoniex downs I have in my inventory that worked FINE before on her.

Me too. Synopsis made it all clear. Thing is, I was fine with it being Sepiroth in my mind. Guess it goes to show you don't need to over complicate a plot line for it to work - I've been doing work on that recently with my writing. Simplifying lore can be harder sometimes because you have to choose what to leave out.

The FF series generally doesn't leave a lot out. But man do I love it!

/sub/theydidthemonstermath

Excellent! Thank you sir.

If I may make a request, can you find the math to show what Sephiroth's minimum weight must be so that the center of gravity on this rigid structure is still supportable by Sephiroth's feet?

Do you have a link to the synopsis you were reading? I apparently need to read the plot of my favorite childhood video game to understand it.

When it happened to Cloud was one hell of a fist-pump moment though. Playing through that game for the first time was such a mysterious experience, and watching that cutscene and having everything fall into place all at once...

Goddamn masterpiece. Kinda soured by how derivative and uninspired Advent Children ended up.

The good thing about the story is that it works perfectly fine if you believe it's Sephiroth the whole time and you're just chasing him all game and finally corner him in the crater at the end.

Yeah, you do see the real Sephiroth once (not including flashback) and he basically has no legs and is pretty fucked up from his dip in the lifestream.

It's a pretty typical thing for RPG's. I was having a "discussion" (argument) about games once (final fantasy and diablo series) and I had to say "If you think you fucking remember anything about FF7's story enough to call it 'good storytelling' I am going to legit call you a fucking liar, because nothing in that story made sense. It was an absolute wacky trip to crazyland. You may remember high-points, but you don't remember the whole trip of batshit that it really was".

There's a lot of convoluted crisscrossing storylines that on their own seem simple, but when added to everything else just make a giant goofy mess. It was confusing as just a stand-alone, without the additions of last order, or dirge of cerberus or crisis core, or the connection to FF10. With them you get wacky shit like Vincent becoming the second most powerful being in the universe (Sephiroth is apparently the strongest being in the universe, Omega weapon is behind Vincent), did I mention that they connected FF7 to FF10 (ff10-2 really). Rin and Shinra decide to build a spaceship and they go from spira to uh... midgar(?) which has apparently replaced earth in our own solar system?

Cloud is.cloud, just cloud was a grunt and not a soldier first class. When he was sick, he somehow thought zack's life was his.

Yes / confused his memories with his memories of Zach. There's a huge part of disc 2 which was Tifa helping him get his head screwed on straight again. That's where all of this comes out. As to why Tifa didn't speak up the first time he told the story, well, who knows.

At least it's only one character with amnesia. In FFVIII it was all of them.

To be fair, clouds are not very dense and the surrounding air does most of the lifting.

But... Jenova isn't a Cetra

You should check out the creators' new show, Milo Murphy's Law. The main character is voiced bey Weird Al.

And even if that doesn't do it for you, remember that it's best that a good show ends on its own terms instead of going the way of Spongebob or The Simpsons.

And twirl it above his head after a win and not cut his head off.

Cloud technically wielded it that one time. Sure, he was holding it by the wrong end, but that's what makes it so badass.

Yeah, 90% on that. I can't remember the exact scene but he's got the same leathery style shoulder armor on instead of metal or spikes. Fucking awesome movie man

I was always a fan of the wandering minstrels "The Monty Python Gang", but my mother would never allow me to see them. I picked up a summer job as a doormat at the house next door to pay to see them myself, but when the time came, my parents took my hard-earned money and gave it to Roger so he could see them himself!

Ever since then, I had always despised wandering minstrels...

Yes and no.

Yes the majority is Zack's perspective, but Cloud was there too, except he was just an infantryman escorting Zack.

Cloud was impaled in the Jenova room though, not Zack. Cloud then managed to throw Sephiroth into the lifestream while impaled, supposedly temporarily killing him.

I think you mean Advent Children: Complete. The Blu-Ray edition came with extra minutes of film (further explained the Geostigma/made it actually seem terrible, as well as added to fight (dirt, bruises, blood, more brutal Cloud vs Sephiroth fight).

There's no temporary about it. You never once fight Sephiroth in the game, outside of flashback stuff. Did you ever think it was weird that Sephiroth drops a piece of Jenova tentacle every time you fight him? Its because you're fighting Jenova, who is taking on the form and appearance of Sephiroth after encountering him in the life stream.

Not to go into spoilers but she was doing something that would have been a threat to Sephiroth so he killed her for it.

If we're saying something else and no one told me, then that I'd have a problem with.

what was wrong with phrasing?

I was mad because I had the PC version back then and the controls on the keyboard were bizarre. So I got stuck on some minigame and had to look up the original PS controls, write them down on a paper, and translate them to the keyboard so I could figure out how to get past it. And of course there was no Google at the time so Infoseek or whatever we used back in the day sent me directly to a page where it said, "Aeris dies at the end of disc 1" instead of taking me to what I wanted. The next day I got to that part already having been spoiled.

I'm glad I used my phone and not my computer.

But we really should work phrasing back into the rotation.

She didn't need to die. Sephiroth just killed her. Dead. She didn't come back. That one of the things that pissed me off most about Advent Children. Having her come back as a ghost in Clouds head undercut the devastating finality of her death in the game.