I am a Muslim and I really agree with that.
Some immigrants come to Europe and act like everyone owes them something.
No, those guys pretty much owe everything to the kind people of the accepting countries. Coming and making demands is just disrespect to say the least.
If you are a hardcore Muslim maybe just don't go to the swimming pool.
The Amish have to put bright orange reflective signals on their black buggies to avoid being hit by cars at night. Sometimes you have to assimilate.
Just to be clear: the ruling only applies to students who haven't yet reached puberty, and students who have gone through puberty can still be exempt. The rules also allow for girls to wear "burkinis."
I think they're mandatory swimming lessons in school.
Makes sense, I don't see why religion should come into who you are in a pool with.
Religion poisons everything
Other than the terror, apparently.
When in Rome, do as the Romans. If the table was turned, i would expect Swiss girls wouldn't swim with boys in Saudi Arabia.
"Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs." - Charles James Napier
Swimming, later on, is a choice of sports you can do at school. But this time there is no choice and thus she has to be there.
In their defense, they spew a lot less shit around than the rest of us. It's not like we're picking up the carbon from our cars.
Reminds me of that story of Britain in India. A man died and custom was the wife join the funeral pyre. The British guy said fine, but our custom is to hang people who burn others to death. That custom kinda withered out
Actually the court says that the right for education outweighs religious freedom. Integration is a byproduct.
I wish I was forced to swim at school I'm still terrified of water.
The court is right to say the need to integrate outweighs the need to maintain your religious differences .
Nobody who rides a horse is required to pick up its poop. There is no exception for the Amish because there is nothing to be exempt from.
Whether that no-one has to cleanup their horses shit is good or bad is another discussion.
Except my dog... that was the ex...
Some more quotes from the girls' father from 2010:
"Aziz Osmanoglu, 36, the secretary of the Muslim community in Basel lives in strict accordance with the Koran. “I stand by it entirely. I regret nothing of what I said at that time”. He stood trial again. In the documentary from the SF1 channel called “behind the veil”, Aziz Osmanoglu was one of the chief characters. There he explained to the viewers: “A (Muslim) man needs sex, that’s why in extreme cases he is allowed to beat his wife if she refuses. If he did not do that, then the man would look for another partner, and this is not acceptable in Islam” He finds whipping or cutting off hands a proper punishment for thieves. “I would willingly stand for Sharia”, he said additionally in an interview. What does he have the stomach for? Many from the audience shook their heads."
Nothing stopping you learning as an adult
Yeah I don't get it. If anything, they are a gateway to bikinis. If burkinis are accepted, they will get skimpier every year just like swimsuits did in the west decades ago.
If the burkini is rejected, the woman might not even be allowed to swim at all.
But still there seems to be no be expectation that they clean up the 20lb shits left everywhere by their horses.
I don't get the problem with burkinis. They're just a swimsuit.
What's the problem anyway? They swim across Mediterranean sea together as well.
Actually the Swiss (I am Swiss) puts LIFE before religion. The Swiss are mandatorily teaching children swimming to prevent them from drowning in the many rivers, lakes and public swimming areas. This is because we have a culture where swimming and being near open waters is an essential part of our lifestyle here (still having some drowned children every year - mostly foreigners).
sounds like a great guy.
Would 100% like him to be part of my Country /s
Sounds like horseshit to me.
No time for the girls to swim with the boys in Saudi Arabia. They need to get dinner ready for their husband.
Yes, they are. They're mandatory for some years of elementary school and later on we were able to chose
Sounds like your cousin should be a little less concerned about pools and a little more concerned about Van Helsing.
"Swiss Muslim girls must swim with boys"....I thought this was some kind of tongue twister.
And even if people weren't kind or anything, you arrive somewhere: you shut up and follow the locals.
Source: european immigrant in China :D
The problem was, that these parents have ignored everything: normal invitations from school, enforced invitations from school, fines for not following orders from school, invitations to appear on court for settling things out, etc. etc. Only when the fines piled up and finally the authoroties started to hold back social wellfare for paying the fines, they started their own fight. From my point of view, following the press, THEIR case is not about religion but fighting for their money!
On a third hand, some people may legitimately want to wear it for modesty sake similar to the fat kid that always wears a t-shirt in the pool
Horse poop is also about as biodegradable as it gets and it's great for your garden. People with large gardens actually pay farmers for it.
You do realize that they are totally shunned for chosen the outside world and lose their entire family, they rarely have more than an 8th grade education and have been brainwashed with fears of the outside world their entire lives. You make it sound like these people are loving and tolerant. They are not.
During the divorce, my ex took my dog and my cat and had them put down while I was at work. I came home to an empty house.
Clearly, you guys didn't read the article.
Believe it or not, this wasn't some slap in the face to Islam, or some triumph by western post enlightenment ideals.
In Islam, when children reach puberty, they are legally considered adults. Now, there is some discussion on what exactly this means (how far into puberty, etc) but most scholars agree that when a girl starts her period, she is a woman. As a brief aside, I don't want to argue the validity of that perspective. Let's just accept that it is what it is and move on.
Until that time, however, there's no problem with keeping boys and girls together, even strangers. Sending them to the pool, all that stuff, is fine before puberty.
The Swiss Court simply said that, as the girls have not yet reached puberty, it is not a violation of your (parents) religious rights to put them into mixed swimming lessons. Had the girls reached puberty, they would have ruled differently.
The question then is, if Islamically there's no problem, why did the parents care at all? That comes down to individual cultures within Islam (shocker I know, not all Muslims think the same). If you go to places like Lebanon, you'll find that, as a culture, they don't even care about bathing suits on full grown women in public. If you go to a place like Saudi Arabia, you'll find the opposite. These parents are Turkish, and for Turks there's a lot of variance, it's a big country. Some care, some don't, I've known both kinds of Turkish families.
Yes, Napier made this comment and enforced the ban on Sati and for this he should be admired. However it should also not be forgotten that he made this comment in 1843, 14 years after Sati was banned in 1829 and 31 years after Raja Rammohan Roy started working to ban Sati in 1812.
Your pool sounds scary
and super nice. I drove by a small community once and all of them fucking waved. Its not a big deal to have people wave, but Ill be damned if it didn't brighten my day.
swim across the Mediterranean... to Switzerland? ;)
I wish to unsubscribe from animal cruelty stories...
Haha, why would boys be swimming with women though, we're talking about childr-
I'm in two minds. On the one hand it's a political uniform (Islam is a political ideology as much as it is a religion, if you can separate the two). On the other I think the State telling people what they're allowed to wear is completely ridiculous.
Not a problem because Saudi pools are male only.
It's pretty impressive when you think about it.
It's not even just modesty. I have a cousin with a chronic condition who takes meds that make her super sensitive to sunlight. The burqinis with the UV fabric were really exciting for her because they let her swim at the beach and the pool. Lots of women like and/or need the extra coverage.
Yes, but who wants to be the government bureaucrat to tell the poor Amish to pick up after themselves?
Or if you're a hardcore Muslim, maybe just don't come to Europe at all.
by the sea shore.
That's easily a large court case and settlement in your favor. On top of animal abuse. Please sue the living shit out of her.
There really is no problem. I see them all the time at the Waterpark in Edmonton. At first it is a bit strange but you quickly get used to it. It is just a different swimming costume. Same as fat guys who refuse to take off their shirts at the pool. Same sense of body modesty just expressed differently.
Religion is for your private life. It should never have anything to do with laws or education unless it's a private school.
I am not going to move to Saudi Arabia and expect them to change their systems to accommodate my Catholic beliefs. Same with any country.
If they don't like it they can simply piss off right back to where they came from and get blown up in some bombing.
Agreed. I think there are certain non-negotiable "rights" Western cultures believe in that Europe shouldn't be ashamed to defend. Among those are freedom of association between the genders, races, and classes. This begs the question if we are intolerant, but it doesn't mean Western culture is anti-Islam or what have you, this simply means we are intolerant of intolerance which is a necessary evil. There's a distinct difference.
Where in this are they encroaching on your right to religious freedom though, so because the country won't change everything and force it's tax paying citizens to bend to your specific vision of how the religion should be?
They are still totally open to practice their religion, but that doesn't superseed the laws and regulations of a country. If you don't want your kids to be forced to do swimming lessons or bi-gender classrooms in school, then pay for a private school, go to a different country that will accommodate that.
Or go to a Muslim country like Saudi Arabia or Dubai. They have plenty of room for immigrants.
They can't live out their specific version of Islam as they believe is right. So it clearly limits freedom of religion. And that's OK! Certain rights and law do need to prioritized because they are in conflict with each other. And that's not only the case with religion but with a lot other laws as well. Another example would be the ban for animals to be slaughtered slowly. That impacts people who want kosher meat. But the right for an animal to die quick and relatively painlessly is more important.
Mennonites near where I live donated a shitload of food to the local soup kitchen. Soup kitchen ends up having to say no to a lot of it because they don't have enough space to keep it all.
So what do the Mennonites do? They fucking building a $40,000 walk-in freezer for the soup kitchen, for free.
Mennonites are amazing, in my book.
I am turkish and this guy's a bad guy.
This country would be much better without religion. It would be better if we could just get rid of it as a whole, its not an old concept for us anyway. Nomads dont have (organized) religion.
The larger a particular group becomes (i.e. muslims), the more power they get (in the form of votes). Thus the demands increase. Most muslims (the traditional uneducated ones...which are the majority) want to benefit from the laws that protect their right to religion but then want to change the laws that aren't based on the Quran. Western countries don't benefit form importing ultra religious uneducated muslims. They have an incredibly hard time integrating.
Terror schmerror, it's only terrifying when you sink.
Then I expect saudi girls to take them off when they come to my country
The case was brought by two Swiss nationals, of Turkish origin, who refused to send their teenage daughters to the compulsory mixed lessons in the city of Basel .. In 2010, after a long-running dispute, the parents were ordered to pay a combined fine of 1,400 Swiss Francs ($1,380, £1,136) "for acting in breach of their parental duty".
It would be better if Switzerland just didn't let them into their country, and I'm not saying that in a snide way. It's not an absolute human right for girls to swim with boys (or even swim at all) and if you're going to force this, then why let them into your country and create all this drama to begin with?
The Amish have origins in Switzerland and have similar social conventions (e.g. gender segregation) and came to the U.S. because of religious persecution, where they were then free to live how they liked.
I don't believe that it's merely a "compromise" that the girls can change their clothing with no boys in the room. I have yet to see a place that forces them to change their clothes in presence of the boys
Sounds like the ban wasn't very well enforced, if someone had to comment on it 14 years after it was banned (not trying to be insensitive, sounds like the ban needed* some additional 'teeth' to change the cultural practice).
Edit: needs -> needed
My ex-wife's father (i.e. the same ex-wife who put down my dog and cat), would punish his children by killing their pets with a ball peen hammer. He once killed an entire litter of puppies. Looking back, it should be no surprise she became a fucked up sociopath.
I...can't argue with you.
Age, and specifically, education year.
I am not Swiss so don't take this for 100%, but European education systems are different from American in that there is no "middle school". It's elementary > high school > college. This would probably indicate that swimming lessons are mixed in elementary, and will be segregated in high school.
I would add that you are not likely going to get mandatory swimming lessons in high school anymore. You'll have finished up with that in elementary school, as most kids learn around age 4-5 (iirc, give or take 1-2 years). People who still swim in high school are doing it as a sport, or to reach expert levels.
Source: Chinese Immigrant in America
We might be talking about different things, but there was a German politician who did not wear the veil or headdress in Saudi Arabia. But the thing is, female western politicians never cover up in Saudi Arabia, and Saudi Arabia, as much as it is a backwards place, does not require western politicians to cover up. It wasn't really a refusal. She just did what she normally did and didn't stand up to anything. It became news because the covering up issue also happened to be an issue in Germany's domestic politics.
I don't know, he is a little bit too open minded for my taste.
When I was a child, my brother would often kick the dog that me and my sister loved to get back at us. I hate it when animals suffer for their masters.
At least they won't be killed over their choice.
Wasn't there a post a few weeks ago of a woman who refused to wear a veil or something in the middle east and everyone was supporting her for standing up to their laws?
Nice try, CIA.
Also when was the last time you poured used engine oil on your vegetable garden and it grew like weeds.
The British custom was used as a threat to stop the people following the local custom. The natives were intimidated into dropping one of their customs by their oppressors, under threat of death.
For the record, I do not think it is OK for a living wife to be burned on a dead husbands funeral pyre, the analogy above is just a terrible fit for the situation in question.
Except drowning. And the sharks. And the man-o-wars. And the box jellyfish.
The Amish allow their children to leave the society, and are even encouraged to live in the outside world to see if it suits them better.
I always say your house your rules. As long as I know the rules in advance and I was not forced into your house I can't complain once I'm in.
That's an amusingly apt comparison. The feelings of shame and guilt I felt when I had to expose my disgusting self to the outside world by taking off my T-shirt at the pool as a kid are something that will always stick with me. Nice to know those women only feel the same way about themselves - all good, then.
Er, well, I believe the deal is if they choose to come to a country, then they should follow the country's rules. They are also free to leave if at any time they become unhappy enough... no point in banning a bunch of people, especially considering most of them don't make a big fuss about it.
I believe the Amish came to USA specifically because they knew they would have more religious freedom. I presume these people were, or should have been, aware of the kind of laws present in Switzerland before they came, and could have chosen another country of their liking.
I actually think it's good these cases get tried, lets the country determine the rules better.
Just to clarify: The ECHR isn't a court of the EU. These two things don't have anything to do with each other. It's the court of the Council of Europe: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe
Edit: thank you kind bot
I really hope that was a joke, and that your ex didn't poison your dog
You're setting the bar impossibly low.
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In the arms of the angellllll
So if they occupy our country then we need to follow their rules? This is a terrible comparison, you have picked an example of foreign customs trumping local ones...
See a lot of people just assume it's all immigrants that demand stuff because the news likes to smear it to cause uproar, the only immigrants I have an issue with are the demanding ones, and the ones that refuse to intigrate and learn the language, if you move somewhere and you demand change from a country or refuse to learn the countries language if it's different from your own, fuck off.
Which is why I will never go to Saudi Arabia.
Yeah, they're cute. They don't need to be assimilated into the collective.
Not the Amish, but Mennonites are much more loving and tolerant from my experience.
Sounds like a pool that you don't swim in. I think they call those aquariums.
Good, you cannot immigrate to a country that has seperation of church and state, and then want the state will honor your religion's tradition of gender segregation, regardless of whether or not you claim it is a respect/disrespect thing.
There was no trumping. Both customs were to be followed.
You think the fat kid is wearing the t shirt to be modest? As a former fat kid, wearing a t shirt at the pool had nothing to do with modesty, it was due to immense embarrassment. Not really the same as modesty.
Problem is, they are hypocrites. They want a nice life, but then try to turn the country they go to into the same shitty one they left behind. Because they "know things better" in all their selfrightiousness.
It's almost like they want to have a parallel society while collecting money from the infidels.
To (mis)quote the fantastic Terry Pratchett:
I'm not afraid of heights, I'm afraid of depths!
Those mother fuckers. How dare they?!
Switzerland isn't an EU country.
Immigrants integrate just fine here.
Mostly because the punishments were inhumane I think
Switzerland isn't part of the EU. Just wanted to underline that.
to be fair, its horse shit, its not that bad, now if they rode around on giant cats, it would be pretty disgusting.
Edit: in no way am i disparaging cats, i love them, but their shits are disgusting
Yeah that's just a story. The history of Sati and it's eventual banning in India is a lot more involved. They were primarily due to the efforts of a man named Raja Rammohan Roy (yes an Indian man). The British eventually supported his efforts and for that we can give them credit.
Their furniture is fucking crafted by the Greek gods or some shit. I used to sell furniture and Amish bedroom set can go for 7k.
I expect swiss girls to wear burka in Saudi too...
I guess it's fair that we're not expected to clean up the C02 emitted from our cars then, right?
Religion is for your private life. It should never have anything to do with laws or education
Fuck, I don't think I've ever seen it more aptly summed up.
Well, they stop off in Italy for pizza and pasta first of course. They are really hungry after that long swim.