Surely everyone now realises after last night, that we need voting reform right?
Just looking at voter representation per population, it's mathematically broken. I'm dreaming of an improved model of the united states after what Boris Johnson said about being a federation of states. We really do have the opportunity to create the system we all want if the public ask. But hey I'm a radical so maybe it's just me.
Pretty much, LD/UKIP/Green votes amount to amount to like 20-25% of the national vote and they have almost no representation. We are moving back towards a two party state, which I feel is both ideologically and politically a bad idea.
And if the Scots actually do fuck off we're a one party state.
Sadly one of the parties that benefits from FPTP now has a majority and isn't going to change the system that got them it.
SNP got 1.5 million votes and 55 seats, UKIP got 3 million votes and 1 seat (so far) Greens got 800 thousand votes and one seat, first past the post needs to die it just isn't democratic.
"don't see the problem" ~ David 'got in on 34%' Cameron.
And this is with people voting tactically, likely the greens would garner more votes in a system people felt they weren't going to waste.
Everyone who cared about these things has realized it for decades.
Unfortunately, too few care.
I'm dreaming of an improved model of the united states
You must be truly desperate if you are looking at us for help.
Come to Scotland! Maybe if we have more people the body heat will warm it up a bit.
Fun fact: There are now more pandas in Scotland than Labour MPs
I agree, turkeys don't vote for Xmas, and don't expect a referendum anytime soon either.
Retards who are swayed by arguments like 'voting reform will cost a lot of money- money which could be spent on our babies and elderly' (yes, that was a thing last time). The British electorate, everybody!!cheers
Except the parties that want the change most (UKIP/Greens/Lib Dems) likely only have 11 MPs between them.
Well obviously if you have enough votes in the commons you can pass anything, but they don't.
This is what has been pissing me off all night and all morning. Regardless of if you agree with UKIP, we live in a democracy, and they've gotten 12% of the overall vote, but only 1 seat. Where as parties like DUP have 8 seats from only 0.6% of the vote, PC and SDLP have 0.5% of the vote, but 3 seats.
180 thousand people vote for DUP they get 8 seats, 3.7 MILLION vote UKIP they get 1.
This illustrates exactly how our system is fucked.
Edit: Some figures:Labour gets 8.8 million votes (30%) = 222 seats DUP gets 180 thousand votes (0.6%) = 8 seats. UKIP gets 3.7 MILLION votes (12%!) = 1 seat.
Clearly we're a democracy....Labour: 30% of the votes = 34% of the seats UKIP: 12% of the votes = 0.1% of the seats. SNP: 5% of the votes = 9% of the seats.
The interests of the people are not represented in Westminster correctly.
I hope so. I voted for AV and I can't understand why anyone would block it. Who doesn't want their vote to count more?!
Oh right, don't worry then lads, FPTP might be alright after all.
Don't forget OUR BOYS
Yet ~24% of the vote. Around ~29% if you count the SNP, who is explicitly in favor of proportional voting as well.
Devils advocate here, I don't think clegg sold out too badly. Lib dems didn't get enough seats to make uni free, but they at least got involved with the new system which is (arguably) at least slightly better than the old. If you look at the lib dem 2010 manifesto they made a lot of claims, but considering they weren't the majority party they actually got a lot of them done.
If you'd struggle to survive without a personal allowance above 6400 pound (most minimum wage workers) then thank clegg it's now 10500. Honestly I think this contributed the most to economic recovery - because it means that everyone on minimum wage had a lot more spending power. This wasn't on the conservative manifesto (thought plans to rise it do exist this time around) and yet it's one of many lib dem policies that Cameron has been taking credit for.
Tldr: Clegg isn't the political messiah. He couldn't fix every problem with so few seats, but he did talk some sense into the tories and got more than a fair share or his manifesto through - most importantly an increase in personal allowance which I think played a huge role in saving the county.
I suppose you're right, But I'm frankly surprised about how absolutely demolished the Liberal Democrats got. They were the Big 3rd party... I knew it would be terrible, because Clegg sold out his voters for a chance at deputy-PM... but damn, If you compare the history of the party, after 2010... it's just so brutal.
LibDems killing themselves combined with the rise of SNP, is what's caused this massive tory surge. Labour reduced to having to sweep up those ex-libdem constituencies and failing to do so. I would wager it's down to the lack of a charismatic party leader though, Even though I think Cameron is a twat, he has more charisma than Ed... Which in our -to be blunt about it- vapid and shallow social media driven society, Is what wins votes... It doesn't matter who has the substance or an alternative plan, all that matters are looks and perceived gravitas.
All we have to do is demand it as a unified public, regardless of political leanings. Even if it takes us a month it's better than 5 years of a broken failing kingdom. The cracks of this ancient system can be seen, luckily we've had a technological revolution and now everyone can actually join the conversation.
Oh yeah, I have definitely noticed the "Americanisation" if that's a thing of our politics system.
Having a two party system would be the cake topper.
UKIP have over double the SNP's share of the vote, but not even 2% as many MPs.
There are opposition days a few times a year, and the other parties get to introduce bills to the house. They rarely win but use them to draw attention to issues the government would rather not think about.
However, since the government usually (and in this case probably does) have a majority, anything they disagree with will be voted down unless there's rebellion. No Tory majority will allow voting reform through, it'd be a whipped vote every time.
The only chance for the foreseeable future was AV, and we nailed that.
They did a really good job of making that sound 1) not that important and 2) too complicated to take sides.
It was deftly done by the tories to make it a non-issue when they had PROMISED to hold the referendum for the lib dems.
As much as I don't agree with the ideology of uncle Nige and UKIP I completely agree with him when he says they've been shafted.
There were some other geniuses who said "I'm voting no to AV because I want STV". Now of course the opponents of electoral reform can say "the British people rejected reform" for a generation at least. We had the opportunity for change and failed.
Well as a Scot who is pro-SNP, but still on the fence about independence, it's simple. I trust the SNP more than labour, more than the lib-dems, I don't trust the Greens with actual power and wouldn't vote for any other party.
I didn't end up voting in the indy ref, I was at a job interview, but when it came down to it, I have no idea what I would have voted, which probably means a No vote. I wasn't convinced.
Vote count doesn't mean shit in this system.
That's why any sensible AV allows you to omit parties and treats your vote like a spoiled ballot if all your choices fall off.
Thing is though, SNP only went for 58 seats, whereas UKIP went for many more.
Let's say in a country that has 100 seats, X party went for 5 and got 100% of the votes. In theory, they would have 5% of the vote. However, their constituency might have had a higher turnout and more votes, so they could end up with 7% of the votes.
Isn't it a bit unfair to give a party more seats than they went for?
From Denmark though so I couldn't vote. :(
Absolutely, stv is the way to go
Indeed. I know many people who voted Labour, despite their views being more in-line with the Greens'. It's a shame that people are forced to vote against their hearts.
This is a stupid idea. No way I'm going to vote to "dump the current system" before I know what the alternatives are going to be.
Agreed. And if this had resulted in a hung Parliament, as was expected, then I believe that this would have resulted in at the very least a strong discussion about voting system reform. However, now that it looks like a Tory majority, I'm sure it will get swept under the rug without a second thought.
Well the Tories are doing their best to emulate you with the systematic defunding and privatisation of government services (NHS, prisons, etc)
This country is fucked.
Yeah, there will be no PR with a Tory majority. A Labour minority was our best hope.
Its was demanded, we had a referendum, people voted to keep the current system.
Disagree, I think definitely we're going to see voices prevent Labour drifting to the centre even more thanks to the rise of Green/SNP
Our MP doesn't even live in her constituency, holds her workshop things in Westminster and has told us to leave if we don't like her decisions. She got reelected purely because she was Conservative. It's really depressing to be honest, nobody seems to think about who they want to represent them.
Oh come on that's a terrible argument. The result is not a representation of the popular vote in any form
it's first past the post. UKIP were neck and neck with the conservatives in many safe Labour seats and came second in a LOT of seats but coming second gets you nothing. UKIP unfortunately for them do not have core support areas. They are a national movement without concentrated support anywhere (the opposite of national parties) and thus suffer.
Similar to the Lib Dems and the Greens, but at least the Lib Dems have some core areas
Majority governments elected by a minority of voters.
8 months ago, Scotland voted "No" to an independence referendum by 55% to 45%. Today, Scotland voted SNP in 56 out of 59 seats. It's obviously a complete farce on some level.
The British sense of 'fairness' should trump politics I think.
Unfortunately, the British sense of 'nah-nah, fuck off I won' will probably trump them both.
But Scotland is smaller, apparently the final figure is 50% went SNP. I find it hard to find fault in that even in a PR system if it was done by constituency they would have won. But becasue they are a nationalist party they don't stand out side of Scotland (unfortunately).
We had one in 2011.... give it another 50 years.
Scot here. Just like to say that every country has its share of bams. We definitely welcome any English that want to join us. Only stipulation. .....By choosing to live with us, you forfeit your right to complain about the weather.
Is it conceivable that a majority in Scotland do not want to break up the union but do want better representation in parliament? (Not Scottish or in touch with Scottish feeling, just seems plausible)
Just looking at voter representation per population, it's mathematically broken.
Which of course isn't what the system we have is intended to deliver.
The idea is that broadly the MP should reflect their locality, and if they fail to do so, lose their seat.
Which sadly, for me, is why Labour got hammered in scotland.
If you base representation purely on population, Scotland will almost inevitably leave the union in response, as they will be the main losers.
IIRC they broke the promise to try and get AV in, and then 'friends of the conservatives' smeared it into the ground. Take a look at this sub today, lots of people salty about FPTP.
Compromise is politics, especially in a coalition. It was a bad move, I agree, but Clegg saw a chance at voting reform and took it. I think any party with less than 10 seats would do the exact same thing given the chance.
Hating the lib dems for a rise in uni fees is a misplaced hatred. You still have the tories to blame, prepare for the possibility of them going even higher.
I think changing or modifying the system again would have been easier after that first step. Now we're just stuck.
An important note is that the coalition agreement did not require LDs to vote for rises in tuition fees, they could have abstained. Most of them chose to break their promises.
Getting the turkeys to vote for Christmas is going to be rather hard. Voting reform is required now so badly.
We didn't have a referendum on a proportional system, though. We had one on AV, which isn't proportional and actually doesn't go very far to fix the problems endemic in FPTP. Admittedly the 'yes' campaign ran an absolutely shoddy campaign, but it's not like we had a good option on the table in the first place.
For anyone interested, and yes it's still missing 16 seat results but it should be accurate enough, I've ran the figures for how the seat distribution should look under a proportional representation per vote model:Party No. Seats Vote Percentage Conservatives 239 36.7% Labour 199 30.6% UKIP 82 12.6% Lib Dem 50 7.7% SNP 32 4.9% Green Party 24 3.7% Democratic Unionist 4 0.6% Plaid Cymru 4 0.6% Sinn Fein 4 0.6% Ulster Unionist 3 0.4% Social Democratic & Labour 2 0.3% Alliance Party 1 0.2% TUSC 1 0.1% National Health Action 1 0.1% Traditional Unionist Voice 1 0.1%
And Lib Dem MPs.
Elections cost money! We should just have a dictatorship to keep costs down, democracy is too expensive
Not long ago, Tony 'got in with 32%' Blair
Decisive isn't good. It just means one party gets to push the entirety of their agenda and everyone who didn't vote for them is fucked. We need a system that promotes compromise to satisfy as many voters as possible not just the winners.
I think this will drive Labour further to the right honestly. Write off Scotland and try and win English votes.
But the Labour movement originally started in Scotland IIRC, so maybe we'll see a modern day version of that with the SNP.
Individual members can put forward bills, but the Government controls the amount of debate time so if it is in any way controversial nothing happens.
yeah that's the big concern to Labour. Try and get Scotland back, a traditional heartland, and risk antagonising England and losing to a triumphalist SNP, or drift to the centre in England and write off a place from where they got some of their finest MPs? Talk about a rock and a hard place
My party did win and we need to change the system.
It was still better than FPTP and could have been a stepping stone to fairer election practice with possible encouragement to a coalition government to assist in that.
As it is all we'll get for the next five years is Cameron saying "that question has been asked and answered by the public, both by referendum and by our mandate as majority party" or similar bullshit.
AV would have weakened the two major parties, those two parties just happen to be the people with the strongest interest in preventing any moves towards proportional representation.