I fucking despise the fact that alternative facts is an actual term that's being used nowadays by both the White House and news outlets.
thats why everyone that isn't in on the bullshit needs to call it what it is:LIES
He's just so fucking ignorant.
He doesn't know why China can't just bitch slap North Korea. He doesn't know that Kim Jong Un is not the same guy that gave Bill Clinton problems. He doesn't know where the aircraft carriers are going.
He doesn't know why Bill O'Reilly was fired. He doesn't know that liking someone doesn't mean they can't do bad things. He doesn't know that sexual assault is wrong even if you're a star.
He doesn't know that Syria is not Iraq. He doesn't know why it's such a big deal that he's high fiving Erdogan over his fucked up election results. He doesn't know how FISA works.
He's such a cunt, I just can't. How much longer?
Edit: there's no way I can even read all the replies to this comment. However--to those of you who have said there will be 8 more years of this, we will see. To those up of you mocking my use of "I can't even," eh, fuck off. It's a colloquialism of our current times. You're free to not use it if you don't like it. Cash me ousside, how bow dah? (I'm kidding. Lighten up)
South Korea’s government wants to know whether Chinese President Xi Jinping gave alternative facts on the nation’s history to Donald Trump.
In an interview with the Wall Street Journal last week, Trump said Xi told him during a recent summit that “Korea actually used to be a part of China.” The comments sparked outrage in Seoul and became an issue in South Korea’s presidential race, prompting the foreign ministry to seek to verify what Xi actually said.
“It’s a clear fact acknowledged by the international community that, for thousands of years in history, Korea has never been part of China,” foreign ministry spokesman Cho June-hyuck said at a briefing in Seoul on Thursday.
Precisely. Every media outlet and every blogger who ever uses the words "Alternative Facts" should be completely ashamed of themselves for covering up the fact that what they are describing is lies and by using that term they are lending some aire of credibility to those lies.
Trump said Xi told him during a recent summit that “Korea actually used to be a part of China.”
Ah, that Xi Jinping is such a jolly joker.
Quick reminder: he maintains support of 90% of Republicans and 40-50% independents.
He's not just a problem but mostly a symptom. Getting involved in local communities is what liberals need to do.
So began a new age of diplomacy: what crazy shit can we get the president of America to say on live TV
I mean Korea was a puppet of the qing empire if I recall correctly
This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 59%. (I'm a bot)
In an interview with the Wall Street Journal last week, Trump said Xi told him during a recent summit that "Korea actually used to be a part of China." The comments sparked outrage in Seoul and became an issue in South Korea's presidential race, prompting the foreign ministry to seek to verify what Xi actually said.
"It's a clear fact acknowledged by the international community that, for thousands of years in history, Korea has never been part of China," foreign ministry spokesman Cho June-hyuck said at a briefing in Seoul on Thursday.
Xi's explanation of the historical relationship made Trump realize that it's "Not so easy" for China to influence North Korea to give up its nuclear program, the newspaper quoted the U.S. president as saying.
I fucking cringed when my english teacher took use to a seminar on how to do research for papers and they were saying it was important to check your sources to avoid alternative facts.
This is a fucking college class i'm taking call it what it fucking is. false information or lies.
Parts of Korea used to be under Chinese rule. It's just a really, really long time ago and frankly I don't know why Trump has to say that under current circumstances since the only purpose it does is to literally trigger South Korean nationalists. He sounds like some random person who read a wikipedia page and started boasting about his newly acquired knowledge without actually understanding the nuances.
I think people think they are being clever and tongue-in-cheek but this is literally how this shit becomes normalized and "okay". They need to stop.
So 90% of Republicans & half of all Independents makes up 37% of America? It's a wonder that Dems aren't winning more elections, even with gerrymandering.
Korea was a subordinate nation for some time but technically it has never been a part of China.
The history between the Korean peninsula and China is way more complicated than either of these statements allow. Both are "correct" and "wrong" depending on the point of view.
In the early history of Korea, the peninsula was split between two kingdoms: Gojoseon (north) and Jin (south). Around 200 BCE, Liu Bang of the Han dynasty had effectively conquered all of China and united it, sort of (that's a rabbit hole not applicable here). In 196, Lu Wan was accused of treason, and his general, Wiman, raised an army. Lu Wan fled to Mongolia. Wiman went to the Korean peninsula and took over Gojoseon, establishing his capital in what is now named Pyongyang in 194 BCE.
In 109 BCE, the great-grandson of Liu Bang invaded Wiman for economic reasons. He installed four different commanders/prefects to rule different parts of Korea. That lasted until 313 CE, when the last of the four prefectures fell.
Over that period of time, one Korean state had basically conquered the peninsula: Goguryeo. The Tang dynasty, allied with Silla (one of the other Korean kingdoms) invaded and conquered Goguryeo in 645 CE. Once again, putting a large portion of Korea in Chinese control (with the exception of the south), until the Tang were forced out of the Korean peninsula again in 698.
Then, the Mongols conquered China. Between 1231–1259 there were several invasions of the Korean peninsula, eventually leading to all of the peninsula under the control of the Mongol empire, later named the Yuan dynasty. That lasted almost another century, before the Yuan dynasty collapsed and Korea broke away again. The Ming (China - 1368) and Joseon (Korea - 1392) empires emerged.
While the Qing dynasty was conquering the Ming dynasty in China, they took a detour and once again conquered Korea (1636). Then the British showed up and attacked China (1839-1841 and again 1856-1860), forcing the Qing to sign several one-sided trade treaties. Korea remained connected to the Qing dynasty, even though they gained autonomy once more during this time.
In 1894, China sent a small army into Korea to put down a revolt, which became the pretext Japan needed to go to war against China. The result of the First Sino-Japanese War was China relinquishing control of Korea. Japan then annexed Korea in 1910 (losing it at the conclusion of WW2).
Parts of Korea were part of China for many years throughout history. However, the portion now called South Korea (the Korea in question) was mostly not part of China. China views the Yuan Empire as Chinese (since Kublai Khan was half-Chinese), so for a hundred years, all of Korea was part of China, from their view. Korea views that period as being part of the Mongol Empire, not China. All of Korea was also controlled by China for several centuries, but it was not part of China. So, Korea was part of China and it also wasn't. Depends on your perspective.
Ah, good on you to call me out: specific numbers > vague adjectives
On mobile, so it ain't going to be a good collection: in general The Atlantic has good stats on that - they include commentary on deviations among stat sources.
As for Dems - maybe don't ignore constituents in favour of establishment? Dunno, not an American. I'm from Poland where I have never voted FOR a party, but against PiS. If not for my mother I don't know if being so fed up with all politics would make me a very active voter. I don't support abstaining from voting, but I sure symphatize.
It's way too close to doublespeak for my liking.
I love this thing. So damn much.
I just wish that it was automatically at the top of the comment section so that the headline addicts know more than what they think the problem is.
He doesn't know why Bill O'Reilly was fired.
Oh, he knows.
He's just on his side on this issue.
He doesn't know where the aircraft carriers are going.
But he does know that the carriers are very big. Very very big. Very powerful. The most powerful carriers ever.
Anything. Literally anything at all. It's like a game of guess who where he's shouting random things and hoping something sticks. Sigh.
Trump: "Korea actually used to be a part of China.”
South Korean government: "WRONG"
Xi's apparent statement to Trump is unnecessarily disrespectful and Trump repeating those words only strains relations with a close American ally for no reason.
Could you imagine if Trump said something like "Putin tells me Poland used to be a part of Russia". Statements like that from an American president undermines all the struggles of the people that fought to preserve their cultural identity.
It's like if the Italian President of Prime Minister boasted the UK used to be part of Italy. I mean, if you tried hard enough you could say Italy is continuation of the Roman Empire, and they did have parts of present UK under their rule...
Dude i am super impressed by Xi's tactic though.
Like he knows how ignorant and impressionable Trump is. He is literally trying to rewrite history to him so America will think that Korea is historically chinese.
China knows that they will have to clean up North Korea. This way when that point comes they can be like , "Hey , ya we will help with NK but we are either taking all of our korea back or none of it" That way its not a complete lost
And Trump may agree because he think its historically chinese anyways
Well at least he didn't say it used to be part of Japan...
As a Korean, I can just imagine the screeching from Korea echoing around the world if he had.
It's not really the same. Allegedly is used until someone has been convicted of a crime. As much evidence as there may be, the case could be thrown out or ruled in another way. Journalists are not there to determine guilt, that is the duty of the courts.
"oh yeah!? Then why do they look alike?" -Trump
I'd settle for "incorrect statement." People can be wrong without lying.
While we're at it: let's stop letting people call opinions, premisses, and platforms "facts."
Edit: Sometimes people do make bold faced lies, and I'm ok with that term too when it's a fact that they lied. Labeling someone a liar for being wrong is irresponsible though.
South Korea was under the control of both China and Japan at different times in history. It was never formally a part of China, but definitely was controlled and regulated by China in the 1800s. The Japanese actually tried to eradicate the Korean language and forced language controls to stop teaching it in schools and make Japanese the primary language in the early 20th century.
"So the president is an uneducated, uncultured idiot, what's the big deal?"
I live in South Korea. They're really touchy about their past. Japan really did a number on them and tried to erase South Korea as a culture. They survived and are proud as fuck of that. If you got the country wrong on top of that history you're just salting the wound.
Oh boy we're gonna fucking die
Maybe the UK can tell him the US was founded in nineteen nighty eight when the Undertaker threw Mankind off Hell In A Cell, and plummeted 16 ft through an announcer’s table, and get him to repeat it seriously
I cant claim to be an expert on this but some quick research indicates it may have been ruled over by China for a short period after being defeated during the Proto-Three Kingdoms period.
Though disputed by North Korean scholars, Western sources generally describe the Lelang Commandery as existing within the Korean peninsula, and extend the rule of the four commanderies as far south as the Han River (Korea). However, South Korean scholars assumed its administrative areas to Pyongan and Hwanghae region.
Sounds like its a sensitive issue but that Trump / Xi's statement would be "technically" correct.
Its a little hillarious to see a bunch of redditors who I would rather assume know almost nothing of Korean / Chinese history laughing about this.
It's what "political correctness" used to mean: adherence to the party line is more important than reality. FYI the term was originally invented in Soviet Russia to describe the policies of Josef Stalin.
Hi, I used to be a reporter. Unless a court of law rules that a person did a crime, that person can sue any non-legal entity for libel or slander if they accuse them. Journalists aren't police, they can't accuse people of crimes, even obvious ones. It's kindof like how you can't pronounce someone dead unless you're a doctor, even if that person is split in half.
Also, just want to throw this in, "the media" is a nonsense term. Criticism of journalism is great, but stop trying to lump all journalists (and movies and TV, sometimes????) into some sort of meta-boogeyman you can blame all problems on.
Yeah I think the post title used is bullshit. I definitely think China tried to exploit Trump's dumb ass in order to gain some benefit. It's pretty sad but our president is vulnerable to the most pathetic attempts of persuading
Why believe Trump is this instance? It's way more likely that Trump made a mistake, and instead of owning up to it, pinned his misinformation on someone else.
This is actually one of the areas where I give everybody a pass. I can certainly understand how the subtlety of this distinction is overlooked by China in their understanding of history, as well as how the Koreans stress the distinction between vassalship and true incorporation. And how Trump wouldn't be savvy enough to understand the political implications of the terms used.
Of the three positions, I think the last is the least defensible, but simply on grounds of competence, not because it represents malice.
And we've brought all of this upon ourselves. That's the scary thing. It's not some global/corporatism/totalitarian/insert adjective agenda doing this. It's every day people that voted in a bunch of clowns and normalize their ridiculous talking points. Our stupidity has been our own undoing so far...
The vassal system is not the same as being the same country which is what Trump is saying. Would you say the same of Vietnam? The Chinese would not even claim this. Or would you say SK is part of the US or NK part of China today? Yuan was a mongol dynasty.
Maybe he's referring to when Joseon was a tributary of china until 1895?
Technically Korea was a satellite state of China for centuries but yeah, never officially "China proper"
I don't really trust Trump to accurately describe any conversation, ever. I think it's just as probable that Trump is full of shit (or confused) as it is that China is trying to exploit his ignorance.
He must be very confused. They made him president while they fired Bill. It certainly must look like somethings off from his point of view.
To be technically correct (the best kind of correct), it wasn't invented by them:
"The term "politically correct" was used infrequently until the latter part of the 20th century. This earlier use did not communicate the social disapproval usually implied in more recent usage. In 1793, the term "politically correct" appeared in a U.S. Supreme Court judgment of a political lawsuit. The term also had use in other English-speaking countries in the 1800s. William Safire states that the first recorded use of the term in the typical modern sense is by Toni Cade Bambara in the 1970 anthology The Black Woman. The term probably entered use in the United Kingdom around 1975." (Wikipedia)
Mongol controlled china did in fact control a portion of Korea at one point.
But he's learn'n!
He just learned that healthcare was complicated
that taxes are complicated
and that nuclear weapons are really really bad
A shockingly large number of nations were tributaries to Imperial China. That doesn't make them part of China.
I could certainly see why Xi would characterize it that way, but the right response is to politely nod while you're face to face with Xi, then not repeat it in public.
In all likelihood Xi made some passing comment about a historical relationship between Korea and China, and Trump in his total ignorance just spouted it back wrong, like a game of telephone.
Ah, some sanity.
Perhaps it is technically wrong to say Korea used to be a part of China (like they were annexed and then broke away), but like you said, there is some subtlety here. The Mongols conquered China and made Korea into a vassal. By the 1300s, the Mongols were thoroughly sinicized and all scholars agree they were rulers of China proper but under a new dynasty known as the Yuan.
It would be like if Putin said Armenia used to be a part of Russia. Well, close, they were both part of the Soviet Union, which Russia dominated, but Armenia was a satellite state and never part of Russia proper. Non-experts (i.e. most people including Trump) would miss this kind of distinction, so it's forgivable.
However, I would hold the President of the United States to a higher standard of knowledge, so yeah, I still put some blame on Trump for running his mouth on this issue. In the end, this small historical distinction doesn't really affect modern day dealings at all except to fuel nationalism between the two countries.
Edit: It turns out Armenia did used to be part of Russia proper! My knowledge of Armenia and Russia only goes back to post-WW2, so it goes to show how nuanced these issues can be.
Getting involved in local communities is what liberals need to do.
Not just liberals, anyone who's disgusted by Trump and Washington today. Be civil, but get involved.
Egypt never ruled over Africa... who told you that, the Egyptian president ?
Thank you for the links and you're exactly right about the Dems. I've damn near left the party but I stay so I can vote in primaries, but I only give money to specific candidates I support; never to the party itself.
Yeah, I'm having a hard time with this. On one hand I HATE Trump, on the other I love history. I am pretty sure the Yuan dynasty controlled the entire Korean peninsula for a bit. I guess you could argue that those were Mongol rulers, but the Chinese absolutely consider the Yuan to be a part of dynastic China.
Edit: Ok, this is a bit contentious I guess. You've got pics like this that show the south being separate from the empire, but then on the same site you've got this that shows the south as being a part of the greater Mongol empire. I am thoroughly confused, but what I am certain of is that this is not a good opportunity to rag on Trump.
Edit 2: I would love to reply to each comment but I have to go to work. I am not trying to offend anyone, and I apologize to those who feel like I am attacking centuries of Korean self determination. I only wanted to point out how complex this issue is, and why it is not an instance of Trump's trademark idiocy. That said, he could have just kept his big mouth shut.
Well because Xi Jinping almost certainly does claim that, since it kind of was in a sense. It was under Yuan dynasty control for many generations. It wasn't ever really officially "part of it" in the modern sense, but given Xi Jinping's talent for stoking nationalist sentiment it's hardly surprising that he's twisted that particular detail.
This headline and the reddit reaction to it has been more echo-chamber-y than usual, I think. This is not exactly expert diplomacy from Trump, but he's not even entirely wrong, not that you'd learn that from these comments.
Not to get all nostalgic but there was a time where any post about a factual topic on reddit would have the top comments analysing and debating the merits of the claims in some depth. Now it's just hundreds of people fighting for who can say the most hysterical thing about the (undoubtedly awful) president.
I mean what's the alternative? Pocket the left overs and bounce, trying to give it back wouldn't be possible. Giving it to the candidate with the most similar platform makes sense.
After another hundred years, one Korean state had basically conquered the peninsula: Goguryeo. The Tang dynasty invaded on conquered Gogureo in 645 CE. Once again, putting a large portion of Korea in Chinese control (with the exception of the far south).
You're almost there, but I'd like to make some correction. Here's what happened after 645 CE:
In 645 - 668: Tang (China) and Silla (a Korean state) launched a joint military campaign against Goguryeo (another Korean state) and split Goguryeo's territory into two. Tang mostly took what is modern-day Manchuria while Silla took the Korean peninsula.
In 668 - 698: Tang Dynasty faced immense resistance from the former citizens of Goguryeo. 30 years after the fall of Goguryeo, the resistance formed an army that drove out Tang and established Balhae. Here's a map of how Korea looked afterward: North-South States Period
About 250 years later: Balhae collapsed due to two reasons: a natural disaster (its largest mountain erupted) and a wave of invasions from the Khitan people (related to the Mongols). Afterward, their survivors founded Goryeo, which gave birth to the name "Korea." Note that Goryeo sounds very similar to Goguryeo, and it's because the name Goryeo is a short version of Goguryeo.
During WW2 China use to be part of Japan, and France use to be part of Germany. But do we really consider China part of Japan and France part of Germany? What's his point?
It's kind of irrelevant, too. Many parts of the world used to be under rule of other parts of the world a long time ago. It's just irrelevant in today's society. For a good example, look at Egypt. One a great nation that ruled over Africa, now is beset by corruption and poverty.
While it's dumb to equate the Roman Empire with Italy, the Romans didn't rule Britannia "briefly". They ruled it for over 300 years.
We're sending an Armada.
How about we just call it a Carrier Battle Group.
Just don't tell the Yuan dynasty they never controlled Korea.
I'd like to agree with you that he's a cunt but he lacks the warmth and depth.
"China and Korea have always been physically close to each other" -> "Korea used to be part of China".
Yep, I can absolutely see that happening. I wish I were being sarcastic.
There's actually multiple things he could have been referring to (if Xi actually said this) which brings to light some of the many arguments had across east asian countries when it comes to historical events and the status of certain kingdoms and empires.
For example, the Yuan (which is pretty invariantly referred to as Chinese despite being Mongol) dynasty maintained a client state in Korea:
Or it could have been the time when the Qing dynasty went to war and turned the entire peninsula into a tributary state:
Of course, it's arguable whether these counted as being part of China, but I wouldn't be surprised if Chinese nationalists saw it that way.
FYI the term was originally invented in Soviet Russia to describe the policies of Josef Stalin.
Sounds like a right-wing alternative fact used to denigrate the dirty libs.
And parts of China used to be under Korean rule. For hundreds of years, most of Manchuria was a part of Korea, and historically, whoever controlled Manchuria had massive influence over China and Mongolia.
I agree though, East Asian history is something that Americans and other westerners are extremely ignorant about, which is ironic considering that the countries in East Asia are some of the oldest civilizations in the world and have an incredibly complex history.
Nothing under consideration here is related to whether he is technically correct.
That honestly doesn't matter.
What matters, and what makes this such a fucking disaster (as usual), is that the President made a stupid fucking statement that anyone with a brain would know would anger South Korea, a critical ally, and gain nothing; then, when he was called on it, he tried to excuse his political gaffe by saying, "well, I know nothing, the Chinese President told me that and I took it as immediate fact and said it publicly without consideration or review."
It is possible that Xi did say this to Trump; and it's equally plausible, given his history, that Xi didn't say this and Trump is just a fucking liar. Honestly, I don't much care which option is true, because both are bad. There is no good "out" in this most recent (but certainly not to be the last) political gaffe for Trump. He fucked up, and he keeps fucking up, and he has no notion of how to carefully, politically backtrack.
Remember when Johnson was ridiculed for not knowing the capital city of a small middle Eastern nation... This guy doesn't know that Asia does not equal China
Edit: this guy doesn't know that all Asian countries aren't currently or formerly China.
This is a pretty stupid thing to argue over
“It’s a clear fact acknowledged by the international community that, for thousands of years in history, Korea has never been part of China,” foreign ministry spokesman Cho June-hyuck said at a briefing in Seoul on Thursday.
this is actually wrong, pretty sure it was part of the Yuan dynasty which is considered a Chinese dynasty.
That was a dynasty set up by the Mongols after their conquest. It's more accurate to say that China and Korea was a part of Mongolia with the map you just presented.
The Northern Part of Korea was controlled by the Han Dynasty in the Classical Era (around Roman times), and the whole peninsula was controlled by the mongols around 1200, but excluding that, Korea mostly existed as a tributary state to China, not directly controlled by it. Japan did annex Korea in 1910, but that is irrelevant to the current discussion, and the conditions of the annexation remain a highly contentious issue.
You know, the Queen of England told me that parts of America actually used to belong to England.
95% of redditors dont read the article.
The Yuan adopted chinese culture and referred to themselves as Chinese though I thought.
Seems like some people here didn't have history classes in high school. It was basically well known that a few areas of Korea used to be part of the Chinese empire. China was not a country then, it was an empire that changed size over time.
Just like Italy, Germany, Spain, etc. used to be a part of the French empire during Napoleon's reign.
China has historically been the strongest nation for like 80% of written history. China and the West never had any real problems (until the 19th century) because of distance and Chinese isolationism.
people dont invent shit like "alternative facts" when they were just mistakenly wrong.
no one that respects you invents something like "alternative facts" when you catch them in a lie.
Is it more or less than the average SC2 chat?
Historic china proper is half of what current china is
He never said South Korea.
Not a fan of Trump but this is really nitpicky.
This is like saying England used to be part of Italy because the Roman Empire briefly filled ruled Britannia.
It's a direct quote from him in his WSJ interview. It wasn't prompted - he claimed it was part of how Xi explained to him "North Korea is complicated."
So we should give China back to Mongolia is what you're saying?
But if it's not true, it's not a fucking fact.
That's the point he's making. The auto-tldr could supplement the knowledge of those who go straight to the comments.
Or even people who aren't disgusted by Trump. Everyone should be working towards improving their communities and being good to their neighbours.
In this case, the history is slightly complicated. Korea and Japan were historically Tributary States to Imperial China. They used Chinese writing systems before they developed their own in the last 500 years (or more recently). This was before the current model of international relations based on national sovereignty, therefore the historical relationship of China to these places might have been similar to colony-colonizer. BUT, this does not excuse Trump's careless statements at a tense time in the region. If the story is true, he should have laughed when Xi said it and mentioned nothing in public, especially to our close ally South Korea!
Adding allegedly doesn't hurt anyone and probably helps if there is a lawsuit of a false claim
Not all of africa, just Sudan, Ethiopia, ands into the middle least as far as Lebanon.
To be fair, nobody knew how complicated healthcare could be.
Wait, that isn't how the US was founded?
That he knew something new
Like Abraham Lincoln (supposedly) once said, the only way America will likely ever be destroyed, is from within. This also reminds me of an older quote about how the price of freedom is eternal vigilance, or something to that effect.
I'm just imagining a bunch of world leaders making a pool to see who get get Trump to do the most insane/idiotic things without him knowing.
sooner or later, yes.
There was a lawsuit in Florida where a group sued that people who donated to the Bernie Sanders campaign should have their money refunded by the DNC because they donated under the assumption in good faith that the democrats would hold a fair primary.
A judge ruled that there was enough evidence for the case to be seen, but that it should be postponed until after the election. I haven't heard anything about it since August though.
Really? I am a Korean who lived in Shanghai for several years and nearly all of my Chinese students were very aware of the fact that Korea had been a vassal state of China in the 1300s, and that quite a bit of our language and culture comes from China.
The Han dynasty existed when the Roman Republic still around. It's even more recent when much of Machuria was under Korean control.