Wow, a nation of 3,6 million people attacking a nation of 168 million people. Might sound crazy but YOLO :DDD
I wonder how many Russians actually believe that Finland started the war
Not only that, that lovely article states that Hitler's occupation happened "too easily", because those countries really wanted to "serve Hitler".
There is something going on in Russia right now. One of our tabloids, iltalehti, interviewed some Russians when they had their navy parade. Apparently people are concerned about the rise in "Nazism and fascism" in Europe. I remember reading Suomen Kuvalehti (quality journalism) around 2008 and being concerned about an article written about how they are washing the face of Stalin- and now Stalin is more popular than he has been in ages. Around the same time I remember reading a short article on how Russia voted that they have the right to invade if Russians are threatened in foreign lands. There are people paid to spread Russian propaganda online and they have definitely succeeded at least on some point confusing and convincing people. Most importantly, there is still a war in Ukraine. We don't talk about it, but there is a war in Ukraine. This is a nation that is currently going to war (and according to this article above us, the whole thing happened because of the Kiev had a rise of a nazi-junta, NATO/EU/USA creating the whole mess).
This article isn't an exception, just a few days ago there was a "historian" explaining on a channel that has about 20 million viewers how Finland's independence was illegal and how it "would be better if Finland belonged to Russia again". Russian media also found the American article about Finns digging tunnels to protect civilians hilarious (btw it is false), kindly stating how any depth will not protect us if they release their army's might on us.
I spot false history and downright propaganda about Finland all the time in Reddit- what tends to concern me the most is not even the posts but the number of upvotes so many of them tend to have. Common theme is that Finland either chose or deserved the war, that we were a nazi-buffer state and USSR only attacked to protect itself, that there really weren't a Molotov-Ribbentrop-pact, that Finland "switched sides" during the war, blah blah and so on and so on.
I'm very concerned about the fact how vividly ww2 lives in our everyday lives, how much we discuss it, or more like how much it is used as a propaganda tool. It's like nations are defined by it, not what is happening right now today.
Edit: I just have to add, more than anything I am just tired about this. So fucking tired. We have just now started to really recover from the wars. It will take multiple generations until the scars are finally healed. We are not a threat, not harming anyone, just minding our own business living our own lives. And let's face it, we do have a pretty nice standard of living and respect for human rights, we are a nice country.
My grandparents had nothing but one wish: Never again. That no Finn (or what comes to it not anyone else, including the Russians and the rest of the world, my grandfather on father's side was always very strict to remind that those men attacking them where forced to be there, just like they were, that it was all just the cruel game of the elite with the lives of regular, good people) would have to lose their health, mental health, home, life or the lives of their loved ones, friends, family, neighbors, wives, husbands, children... War is pure hell, pure torture, mindless, horrible waste of lives. Both sides of my family were horribly traumatized and many died (my grandfather lost his family completely, my grandmother all six of her brothers, my grandmother's father died and many more) , my grandfather from my mother's side maybe the most, he saw his own best childhood friend since infants being blown up in front of his eyes, he was very unstable mentally, tried to self-medicate with alcohol and had horrible pain in his left shoulder that never healed. If this was just Russia cooking up propaganda to get to their own domestic goals using Finland as a tool (meaning creating an enemy to strengthen their political goals, I do not mean accepting violence or them invading other countries), I guess I could live with it. Of course it wouldn't be ideal, but what can you do. It would still have some toll, like reduce the number of Russian tourists or them coming here to live on summer cottages, which would be very unfortunate. But if this is a way of slowly starting to build up a foundation to something else, painting a hostile image of us as enemies, well... Well, I don't really have words to describe how would I feel about that.
Edit2: Gold??? That is something I never thought I would get on Reddit, thank you so much!
From Russia's point of view I guess this isn't even rewriting, since this is the original false flag that gave them the casus belli.
You don't believe that Finland ,known facist hell hole and nazi ally at the time, would start an opportunistic war (the dastardly Finns would have had complete power of surprise since Soviets were not in any other conflict at the time) against a superpower with about 50x the population and start it by shelling some small village?
What are you some sort of western NaziFacistRussophobe?
Oh you know us Finns. Our bloodthirst cannot be quenched.
Hold my beer. Leeroy Jenkins!
Exactly, this has been the official story of Russia since it happened. I have a vague memory of Gorbachev or Yeltsin admitting some doubt about it, but the official policy's always been the same.
It would be quite tricky for Russia to be proud of their real history and, as any other nation they obviously need their history to be proud of.
Finland responded with a military provocation, with obvious support of Germany
Germany was a Soviet ally at that time. They jointly invaded Poland in September 1939 and celebrated together the defeat of the country.
The Soviet archives were opened in the 1990s and that's when it was discovered to be a fabrication. Yeltsin was the one who admitted the USSR had been the aggressor and staged a false flag operation to create a casus belli. Khrushchev had at an earlier point already admitted it was staged by Artillery Marshal Grigory Kulik.
And we were coming for you lot next but alas the glorious soviet union saved the day again by beating back the unrelenting tide of mongols part 2:the electric fingaloo
indeed, the Finns were marching towards Moscow!
Can confirm, am bloodthirsty Finn.
I myself know nobody.
As of those with bad education - I think that they do not know about this war at all.
The West in general. The point of the article is to convince readers that Europe, even the Allies, conspired against the Soviets by surrendering to the Nazis and/or supporting the Finns.
Small and spicy Estonia of 1,3 million people, determined invade and occupy the Russia of 143 million people. It might sound crazy, yes, but logic doesn't live in the head of clay-hungry determined Estonian warriors! Such a threat, so much scary to Russia!
Finland responded with a military provocation, with obvious support from Germany and the warmongers.
Who were those warmongers?
Wait up, we coming too. YOLO
Confirming his confirmation. Visited Finnland. Those crazy bastards are thirsty 24/7, mainly for alcohol, but blood will do in a pinch.
God dammit Leeroy
I've looked up articles written by this author, he is a total lunatic, USSR is basically his infallible God.
Russia like to put themselves in this weird position of 'we are a peaceful nation of nice people who never attacks anyone or does anything wrong' when discussing war crimes to 'we are a strong fighting people who will fuck anything and everyone up if provoked' when discussing sanctions against them
We have one already, it's called /sub/russia Try posting this article there mentioning the lies and you'll get banned in a heartbeat
Not to mention how many people Stalin got killed. Hitler pales in comparison. The lies run deep.
I think Russia is seeing an opportunity in the disorder and confusion that's brewing in the west at the moment. Not only is US seemingly stepping down/losing its place as the de facto world leader, but Europe seems to have an identity crisis as well.
I find that to be the weirdest (but understandable, I guess) blind spot in how Russians perceive the war. It's as if Barbarossa started in August 1939, because everything between August '39 and June '41 seems to be completely forgotten.
This is Trump level reasoning.
we had control of congress and senate overwhelming numerical and technological superiority
we lost a lot of men
we didn't achieve our objectives
Therefore: we won.
Praise Russia from saving us poor swedes!
And soon afterwards Latvia and Lithuania as well. Crazy how these small countries tries to overtake a giant nation like Russia. Tiny imperialist countries, sure got what they deserved! /s
Russia is likely fueling the conflict between far left and far right. The migration wave from Africa and ME is also being made worse by Russian actions in Syria. I'm also suspicious towards the US for continuing to destabilize Europe through their actions in Syria and the middle east.
be careful, be watchful.
if we do not take care, this narrative and others like it will be the "truth" of the future.
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength
The ministry of truth is at it again
Can confirm, was banned because I asked where I can buy a Russian tank to go on summer holiday to east Ukraine as a tourist, no sense of humor at all
Everybody makes mistakes. /s
I like how they technically don't say that Finland shelled Mainila but instead say that some guy wrote in his memoirs that he got a message that they had done so. They've had a lot of practice with disinformation after all.
Not according to this report. See the last paragraph. "We didnt achieve our objective, lost an unbelievable amount of men, despite overwhelming numerical and technological superiority, but we still won and theres nothing to be ashamed of anyway."
Wellcome to modern Russian History, where .
Not only that, that lovely article states that the countries occupied by Hitler happened "too easily", meaning that they really wanted to "serve Hitler".
Russia seems to be conveniently forgetting that they out and out allied with Nazi Germany, specifically Adolf Hitler, in order to carve up Poland. The only reason it even resembled them "helping" the rest of the world is because their buddy, Adolf Hitler, decided to break their alliance.
These are historical facts.
We need a subreddit dedicated to Russian propaganda.
A very apt description of Finnish culture.
the crazy thing is that they won relatively speaking, and kept their Independence
I think it was Yeltsin because the local Stalinists(?) always scream that it doesn't count because Yeltsin was a drunk.
A disappointingly large amount I bet.
“And we saves way more than we rape, and we only rape to save. But we does rape.” Давид Шапель
I'm not necessarily bothered or insulted if Russians want to lie to each other. I guess the people writing this and plenty of their readers know that this isn't true, but are willing to go along for the sake of Russia.
I'm mainly sad about the current state of Russia and how the oligarchy's struggle to keep absolute power is hurting the regular people. We had such hopes for the post-Soviet Russia, singing some Scoprions and thinking it would all get better. And for a while it really did look like Russia would get prosperous and free.
But now, the oil money is disappearing, the corruption is savage, the economy is crashing and the only thing seemingly holding it together is blatant lying.
Haven't you seen movie The Blade? It was made first about finnish student community but was changed to vampires after copy-right issues.
My grocery store is to the east of my house, so I march towards Moscow every day.
Should I expect a Soviet Invasion?
Should I expect a Soviet defense of the motherland?
At least I have chicken.
Wikipedia article for the shelling of Mainila: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila
News article in Finnish: http://www.is.fi/ulkomaat/art-2000005309849.html
A drunk Russian?! Unheard of.
RETURN KARELIA AND SALMIJÄRVI
winter war 2017 now
Pretty sure I talked to him on Reddit before
If it's really true that there's such a giant blind spot of omissions and lies it's no wonder Russians are so flabbergasted at their neighbours historical resentment.
Yeah, but Japan was batshit insane. The amount of punishment it took to get them to surrender in WW2 is kinda surreal.
They are full of very poor Russians now. No thanks. Our bums live an affluent life in comparison.
Hey! Russian here, so please hear the other side.
First of all I would like to apologize for what Zvezda did there, it's truly outrageous. Unfortunately, it's not the first time they do things like this, it's not even the worst case.
As to the Winter War itself, I can tell you that I was taught in school some 10 years ago, that it was the Soviet Union that started the war, and that the infamous shelling was a Soviet provocation. They still tell the same in schools now, to my information.
Though there are a lot of people who still think that the war was 'strategically justified'. We had to protect Leningrad from the inevitable German attack from the Finnish territory and push the border at least a couple hundred kilometers away from the strategically important city.
I personally do not believe that any strategy can justify an agressive war, but it appears that many Russians, including most politicians, think otherwise.
And of all the nations that should have respected home field advantage and a harsh winter you would think it would be Russia.
Paraguay would do it
I was very confused for a second wondering how shelling the capital of the Philippines started war between Finland and Russia.
I agree, at several points in 1939 various Finns were marching in the direction of Moscow, and I think Mecca as well if you want the absolute truth.
Aggressive fascist junta with support of russophobic Western allies attacks poor innocent Russia. Looks very... familiar?
Nobody here in Norway would bat an eye at Finland's actions during the war. There's actually much more disdain towards the "neutral" Swedes. Finland is viewed as someone who put up a fight, albeit with support from the wrong side, for the right reasons.
This is a /sub/polandball comic in the making.
since this is the original false flag that gave them the casus belli.
Russians were doing a lot of strange things on their borders. In Latvia they crossed the border just few days before invasion of 1940 and murdered some border guards and thei... without any obvious reason. Unless intimidation was their reason.
Then again, when a nation of 168 million people attacked a nation of 3.6 million people how'd they do? :)
TV Zvezda is a Russian nationwide TV network run by the Russian Ministry of Defence
They don't have even a pretence of sticking to facts that actually happened as evident by their coverage of events in Ukraine. It wasn't biased reporting, "having an angle", whatever - they reported completely made up stories with the same editorial style as gutter press would on a story about space aliens.
It's not really a lie, I don't think. It's more like 'conveniently forgotten' which is understandable. We in Finland have a similar one too - being allied with the Nazis is something that generations of historians have tried to rationalize and even to this day we still talk of 'co-belligerents' or other such terms to help with the cognitive dissonance of being both the good guys and buddies with the Nazis..
From my experience, in Belgium one could maybe say the same about Leopold II and his adventures in the Congo? From my (admittedly rather limited) experience in Belgium, he doesn't seem to be any/much less thought of than any other former head of state and while people are aware of the Congo Free State, it's not like it gets brought up that much in relation to the man? Or am I completely mistaken here due to my limited experience?
I'm not necessarily bothered or insulted if Russians want to lie to each other.
I wouldn't be too worried if someone like Zhirinovsky said this. But this is coming from the state television. This calls for a diplomatic response on Finland's part, in my opinion. This cannot go without correction.
Russia seems to be one of the more extreme examples of the rise in far-right populism that has been happening seemingly all across the world recently. Turkey, China, various Western and Eastern European countries alike, the USA, Australia, the Philippines ... they all seem to be experiencing similar sort of phenomena (albeit to drastically different degrees, of course).
Hell, even ISIS and the rise of Islamic extremism is also a kind of xenophobic, far-right populism, albeit one based around religion rather than nation/race/culture (and one which promotes a romanticized, revisionist view of history).
Xenophobia, anti-globalism, and historical revisionism abound. Countries all around the world are looking back to a romanticized, fantastical version of their own country's history that was never actually a reality (glorious USSR, make America great again, the push for "patriotic education" in China, the "everything was better before the EU" sentiment in the UK, and so on).
Another element of this phenomenon is that each movement focuses much of their anger around an "enemy", on whom they blame all their problems. In Russia, Turkey and the Middle East, that enemy is the West. In the EU, the enemy is Muslims, Russia, and sometimes the EU itself. In China, it's the West and Japan. In the USA, it's Muslims, Mexico, China, and so on.
I guess people find it easier to blame "outsiders" for their problems. It presents a seemingly simple solution to problems which are actually very complex. If all our problems are caused by the outsiders, then all we have to do is get rid of the outsiders. But if our problems stem mostly from internal causes, then there's no simple solution. And this kind of thinking is encouraged by various governments too, as a way to deflect the anger of the populace away from the government. Russia is a great example of this. Oh, our economy is struggling? Of course that's because of the evil westerners trying to weaken us by imposing sanctions on us! It has nothing to do with our aggressive foreign policy at all! Which, of course, you should totally support because we're just fighting the foreigners who obviously seek to destroy us. Just look at the sanctions they imposed on us!
It seems that Russia is actively encouraging these movements as well (Trump, Le Pen, etc.). I'm sure they're not that large a causal factor, and it's more just that they're exploiting the trend and trying to destabilize the West, but it's concerning nonetheless. It shows how this whole thing forms a positive feedback loop. As each group moves further to the right, they antagonize each other further, which causes even more mistrust and antagonism between them, which drives them further apart.
Sorry about the rant, but I worry deeply about the future of the world. The world today in many ways reminds me of the 1930s. Things are still nowhere near as bad as back then, but I have to wonder ...
Well, let's drink to that, my brother in plight (of being Russia's neighbour).
Thanks USSR for protecting my sweet Poland from those evil Finns.
TIL Wesley Snipes is a Finnish community student.
Should I expect a Soviet Invasion?
A Soviet counterattack, you despicable warmonger!
Up until a few years ago, I hadn't actually seen any Russians claim that Finland steted the Winter War, but I had seen some serious Tankies/Stalin-apologetics argue both that the Soviet Union were a victim of Finnish aggeession, that Soviet demands before the war (like demanding Soviet naval bases on Finnish islands in the Baltic) were completely fair for an innocent Soviet Union to demand, and that if the Soviets attacked first, then it was only in self defense.
I'm with the Ruskies on this one. The Finns are a disgusting and boorish people, 2011 6-1 never forget.
Russia is likely fueling the conflict between far left and far right.
Various far right politicians/movements keep on being discovered as having ties to Russian financing. It's more than just likely, it seems very much definitive.
Delusional ones will believe. Not sure how many in reality, but every country has their gullible population. And considering the number of people living in Russia; the amount might be higher than one would hope.
edit: added words
But finland had been preparing for this attack for ages. So well that the army almost had an almost standardized rifle for every soldier. Not uniforms though but who needs such luxuries.
I've seen this in Hearts of Iron IV.
Russian confirming here.
Ah those damn finnish snipers -_-.
Georgia actually attacked first. Unless you are disputing the results of the EU fact-finding mission.
still makes just about as much sense as what the article claims.
Former autonomous Imperial Russian subjects, unite! Cheers!
As a sidenote, the Polish experience and the process towards independence really influenced the thinking in Finland towards full independence and especially when the Provisional Government in March of 1917 publically gave its support for Polish independence, that was a big enough of a deal for the Finns to organize in honor of independent Poland and write poems (scroll to the bottom, in Finnish here) about it. 100 years later, it's weird to think how things could have been for both of us had things gone differently!
i dont want to sound like no hater but japan did that to china lol
Holy shit I just read the article and it gets even worse
>Кстати, Запад не только провоцировал войну Финляндии с СССР, но и поставлял ей вооружение. Великобритания, Франция, Швеция направили в Финляндию только самолетов более 500 штук. Вооружение в Финляндию поступало также из США, Норвегии, Италии и других стран Запада.
>Вся политика Запада была направлена на достижение одной цели - добиться нападения Германии на СССР.
LMAO! You can't make this shit up. So the West armed Finland in the war against the USSR to test its strength, and made everything possible for the Nazi Germany to attack the poor USSR (this is what the article says), and after that the West (US and the British Empire in particular) also STARTED arming and helping the Soviets by all means to beat the Nazis? This shit makes sense only in the head of a Russian debyl.
edit: And let's conveniently forget the fact that up until 1941 USSR and Nazi Germany were allies - they jointly invaded and divided Poland and the Bltics. They held joint military parades for god's sake! And remember guys, according to the Russians, WW2 started in 1941.
we've always been at war with Germany and the warmongers
I've done this in Hearts of Iron IV.
They kidnapped Finnish borders guards two days after these Shellings of Mainila. But they claimed that this Finnish military unit (three people) had attacked them.
Kinda funny that this comment comes from a Brit, in Brazil it was taught for many years that the paraguay war was a british machination.
Blaming the victim is a tried-and-true KGB trick used by Russia till our days to justify attacking Russia's neighbors. Unfortunately there are too many naive people in the world still believing Russia and whitewashing its dictators.
I'm Russian and I had a giggle.
We make the best propaganda. Huge! Nobody lies about history like us.
The tricky part is being proud of your history while also accepting that it has a dark side and your country and/or people did horrible things too. To take the good with the bad.
But autocrats can't have that. Because if people think their leaders did bad things in the past, they might start thinking their leaders are still doing bad things in the present, and you can't have none of that if you're busy plundering your own country's wealth to stash it on foreign bank accounts.
Stalin did one thing wrong.
Don't have anything that detailed at hand, but the wikipedia article on the Hiroshima & Nagasaki bombings has a surprisingly thorough account of Japan's surrender and what it took to get them there. Long story short:67 Japanese cities destroyed (bombed) Germany surrenders. Japan has no fucks to give. Neutrality pact between USSR and Japan is revoked by the USSR (August 5th). Hiroshima gets nuked (August 6th). Japanese physicists confirm that the damage was caused by a nuclear bomb. Japan decides they can endure the bombing, since nuclear weapon production should be quite slow. USSR declares war on Japan (late at night August 8th) and launches an invasion into Manchuria Nagasaki gets nuked (morning August 9th) Japan surrenders (August 12th)
Here's the whole thing, if you're curious - probably not the most accurate source out there, but good for a rough outline: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki
I mean, he certainly did at one point. Reagan sold him chemical weapons to use against Iran. But I think he used them up on the Persians and Kurds long before Georgie II arrived on scene. There was no evidence he had significant stockpiles or an active wmd program.
Swedish Jakob De la Gardie and Polish Sigismund III Vasa (who was also King of Sweden for a few years, and came from a Swedish dynasty) are the only ones I know of to actually capture Moscow from the west... both during the Time of Troubles, and De la Gardie from rebels to return it to the Tsar, though.
"A large part" of the Swedish forces were Finns at least, according to the sources I've found.
Do you think Saddam Whosayn had WMD?
Hitler only pales in comparison if you ignore the majority of deaths he's responsible for. The death tolls for Hitler and Stalin are very similar in scale, around 20 to 30 million for both.
True. But saying that Russia attacked first is not an oversimplification, it is just a plain lie.
That's like my whole family!
"Russia is the strongest nation ever could fuck America in one blow they have so much more advanced military (name some random event I have never heard about where they used some super advanced technology to kill everyone which now to me seems like a made up story, a propaganda or some shit) "
"Russia and the slavs are a peaceful race, we would ever attack anyone we are very peaceful and loving"
But let propaganda remain propaganda, not serious talk.
It depends on the source of information whether it is propaganda or not.