Paris opera ejects woman in Muslim veil after cast refuses to sing

Paris opera ejects woman in Muslim veil after cast refuses to sing

France has a strong belief in “Equality, Liberty and Fraternity”, they believe (rightly IMO), that to hide ones face from your fellow citizens is not in tune with their fundamental principles of Fraternity and Equality. How can I be equal with someone who refuses to show me their face? How can I be brothers with someone who refuses to show me their face?

It puts people on a unequal footing in society, it says “we are not to be looked upon by you”, it is divisive and in most cases more of a political statement than a religious one, it is worn to say “look at me, I am a pious Muslim, and you are not, you are below me, to the extent that my body and my face should not even be looked upon by you”. If you look at how many women from Islamic Countries wear a full face veil compared to western countries you will find it is more common in the West.

the veil dehumanizes. it's a human without a face. you don't know who you are talking to, no individual identity. you have no basic social facial cues, expression. you might as well be talking to a piece of furniture

cover the hair, fine

cover the face? no, fundamentally incompatible with a society that values acceptance and equality

your religious beliefs are not more important than your humanity. if you think they are, you are the problem

She was aware of the law, it's been in place for a while and so purposefully wore it...it's her own fault in all honesty, the Nijab is not required by Islam, there is not a single passage which states "Cover yo'face" but it does state one should dress decently.

Ninja

If you are in somebody else country you need to follow that country laws its simple

If you walk around in a ski mask the cops are going to be called. Same thing

"She went in un noticed"

That's why we call them ninjas over here

Depends on where you are. On Svalbard there is just a friendly reminder on the front door of the bank to please leave your rifle outside and take of your ski-mask, apparently it make some trouists nervous if the bank is full of armed guys with ski-masks. Both are common though since it's bloodly cold and being armed outside s more or less mandatory because of polar bear risk.

Somehow I just can't get behind this. I know what it represents and the wearing is such items is not something I condone.

But she's also a woman under there. A woman who was probably HIDEOUSLY embarrassed and who had, what ought to have been a nice evening, ruined. Publicly. Ultimately, because of her beliefs.

It's really hard to consolidate my belief in tolerance with this sort of action, however lawful it might be in France.

EDIT: In response to downvotes, please explain to me why my opinion is not contributing. If you disagree with me, respond to me.

I understand that this is law, but why the fuck did they leave it until she was in the damn seat at the Opera. Why did singers have to point it out? If it was illegal they fucked up for letting her in in the first place!

If it's the law fine, you just don't let her in. You don't let her sit down. You don't let her in then eject her because a performer found it offensive. I find a crucifix to be pretty distasteful but I wouldn't have a woman embarrassingly ejected from the Opera because of it.

The problem is that if you actually believe in your religion, your religion is always more important than your humanity. Hell, if god is real how can anything else be important?

More like "If you are in a 21st century country and still think it's the 16th, pick up the pace"

It's interesting how Reddit feels about various topics will change depending on who's targeted.

The government wants to spy on you 24/7: Fuck you! I'm have a right to privacy!

It's illegal to wear a mask while protesting: Fuck you! I have a right to privacy!

You can't wear a niqab in public: Oh, that's a great law! Totally makes sense! Good job government!

Reddit upvotes anything with "ninja" in the comment.

She was ejected after the cast THREATENED to refuse to sing. Get the title right at least.

Wearing the veil isn't a religious tradition. It's a tradition that was picked up from the Persian Empire, and isn't mentioned in the Koran even once. In fact, most Islamic nations don't use the practice at all.

So I mean, it's a nice theory to try and religiously discredit it but it really doesn't make any sense at all since it didn't originate in Islam.

Well first of all, some historic about this law. It was bringed after the media put forward a rise of woman wearing veil (not talking about niqab just the veil which covers the hair) at school.

Some "deputés" (right wing) rised the idea to not allow veil in all public areas and a project of law (projet de loi) was created in the Parliament. But the Constitutional Council said that this law was unconstitutional because it's focused only on one part of the population : the muslims.

So they changed it to a law which forbide all people to cover their face in a matter of Security. There was nothing about "Equality, Liberty and Fraternity".

Just for information, in a matter of security i agree totaly with this law. But please dont be naive and bring the moral behind the law.

The part about I'm superior is a completly subjective point of view and therefor bullshit.

edit : clarity

Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens, opera patrons in niqabs and buttplugs for Christmas, these are a few of my favourite things...

The woman and her companion were later confronted by an inspector during the interval, who asked the woman either to unveil or to leave the performance.

They were asked to leave during the interval - i'm sure the opera house were professional enough to not cause a scene.

I think it's the divide between us and eu redditors where euros see muslims as a much bigger cultural problem than Americans do

It's the same thing as gypsies, any post that bashes gypsies gets upvoted by euros

Luxembourger here. No, France has no strong belief in those old principles these days. That's a distorted, romantic view. The political atmosphere is one of intolerance and strong right-wing tendencies (which in Europe means blatant xenophobia). Also, an opera singer hardly compares to a law inforcement officer (whether that woman had broken a law would have to be settled in court and not by a theatre group). What a bunch of divas.

That co-worker was lying or you are. These type of stories are very common. From a black person finding out that racecards don't work in China to Indians beating up Christians. It's starts off with the idea that your country is too soft towards a group you hate. Then you contrast with a country you look down upon treating the group you hate more brutishly when they act up. It's a way of saying that you are too civilised for your own good. It's insulting to both parties.

This story is one of many crap that feeds of that bullshit. Do you think a security guard in a Moscow airport can just grab a customer and threathen to burn her? That says a lot about your opinion of Russia than Muslims. In reality Russia isn't a lawless place. There are many Muslims there and they run their own autonomous republics. Many of Russia's neighbours are also muslim. Sure the drunk racist on the street will hate muslims but not in an airport without facing consequnces.

If you want more stories like this, go read stormfront. They love to tell tales about how others are putting black people in their place unlike "liberal america".

I'm sure i will get a lot of flack for this, but suffice it to say that i am Lebanese, have lots of Arabic friends, live in borough in North London where there are a lot of Arabs and grew up for 15 years in Saudi Arabia...i have lived alongside Arabs and Muslims my whole life and know they are some of the most friendly, genuine people on Earth...that being said, i refuse to have anything to do with women dressed like this. I wont respond to them if they speak to me and i dislike seeing them walking in the street immensely. If they have no intention of integrating and mixing with the general public and the people around them, then i have no desire to mix with them. They way they look is oppressive and has no place in a western society.

and you are both equal, as you are both just disembodied voices. perhaps everyone should wear a veil in public?

Why? In normal, every day situations, it's never affected me. I live and work in Toronto, which has a very high muslim population, and I see covered women on a daily basis (many live in my condo). It's at worst off-putting.

They were in the most expensive seats, they might have also slipped something to the manager or usher to overlook the violation.

People don't have to tolerate every religious foible. Obviously their religion, along with encouraging women to cover up, doesn't encourage women to travel around to places like the opera, public beaches, etc. An amish might be a little oppressed because they can't drive their horse and buggy everywhere. An evangelical might be upset if they can't have loud obnoxious politically biased prayers at every event they attend.So what?

We can't and shouldn't cater to every religious foible. If you are a devout individual, not every place is for you.

Edit: to clarify, if you are devout , fine. You are striving for the kingdom of god, not things of this world. Embrace your religion, just don't force others to embrace you, because your heaven is somebody else's hell.

You don't cure ebola by making it illegal to have ebola either.

Similarly, ideologies only become stronger and more dangerous the more you try to coercively push them out.

A co-worker told me of something similar happening at an airport in Moscow. Apparently this British woman approached customs in a burka. The Russian guard told her that she needed to show her face. She became belligerent at the guard. The guard grabbed her by her burka and pulled over the custom’s table. He then pulled out a lighter, lit it and put real close to her face. And then he said ‘take it off or I will burn it off’.

I guess it’s good thing they didn’t decide to visit the Bolshoi in Russia.

It's a cultural thing though -- not a religious one. It is not mentioned in the Koran or Bible. And less than 100 years ago, many christian females walked around using the same headwear. Hell, if you look hard enough, you'll find them today. The message: Your face belonging only to your husband -or- not tempting males because are spoken for. (depends on who you ask)

The problem is that if you actually believe in your religion, your religion is always more important than your humanity. Hell, if god is real how can anything else be important?

Correct. Religion in the west these days is mixture of self-help ("give me strength"), sports-team-like loyalty (|where do i belong?") and wallmart-of-hate ("give a good reason to feel superior to person X that i don't like").

The problem of using religion to judge others is that almost nobody follows all the rules -- most not even the important tenants (no jealousy, no resentment, no murder/war*, etc.) It gets even more important because most religious scripture is completely contradictory to its claimed "most important" rules.

For society to move ahead, religion should never be considered a value argument in favor or against anything. I'm not claiming this from a moral ground, but from a technical ground -- nobody, including the leaders of churches are able to consistently interpret these rules. Therefor, the rules are not 'operatable' and religion should never be of any concern legally and most if not all religious rights, are morally imperative rights without the word "religion" in it. Example: the government should not be able to ban -religious- books. Or: you have the right to believe whatever you want.

Luckily, the French nation has some self respect and doesn't give a flying croissant whether you are behind it or not.

I wonder what you would have said about sit-in protests during the segregation era.

Sometimes laws are just dumb and discriminatory.

"Dress decently"

Not

"Burqa".

I better not catch you smoking weed in america. It's that simple right?


Svalbard 


First Google image

Svalbard

Ok I find this comment waaaaaay funnier than anything I've read on reddit today

How is this the top comment?

Banks aren't public in the U.S. They can ban whatever they want. Ski masks aren't banned in public here. They aren't analogous scenarios.

People are not allowed to go naked either. So even in France, you cannot dress the way you want. When visiting a foreign country you have to adapt to the local sensitivity. In the Opera Paris it means, no full nudity no burqa/niqab (both are offensive and illegal). Islamic scarves, crucifix, kippas and miniskirts are OK.

Do you think it is OK for a western woman to walk around the streets of Riyadh in bikini? No? So, we agree no burqa in western Europe.

Leaving in the region, my guess is that she was not stopped before because some people turn a blind eye not to offend religious feelings.

I were at a bank in Svalbard and there was a line of armed people with ski masks, I would be think that bank robberies became so common that the robbers were standing in line.

People don't have to tolerate every religious foible.

If you can tolerate any religious foible, a woman wearing a hood seems pretty easy.

Moscow

She probably though she in the US or UK.

Russians don't fuck around

You're right, all laws everywhere are legitimate and always have been

Sunglasses are banned in France?

In this case the woman was a tourist from one of the Gulf states. I doubt there was any political statement, just cultural practice.

It is a religious practice though. It didn't start as one but it became one.

As a former Muslim. I never liked the idea but supported the right. I can see why governments would ban it for security reasons though. you have NO idea who's actually under there or what they're hiding

calling bullshit. You might be a Luxembourger, you might even understand the language, but unless you actually lived there (and went to school there - as I did), you don't really know any better than any other outsider: "laïcité" and separation of church and state, is taken very seriously in France, it has nothing to do with xenophobia or right-wing tendencies. It is at the core of French society principles and values (one of the few redeeming value of the darn place).

ps Wearing a burqa over there is to send a big FU to everybody around you - aka a 'political' statement if you like - and is received - rightfully so - as such. Oh, and racism / xenophobia has nothing to do with it either, the burqa extremists tend to be recent indigenous converts.

The veil is just the syndrome. You don't cure Ebola by banning coughing, you don't cure extremist Islam by banning the veil. You have to cure the ideology behind the veil.

Stop being ashamed of your culture and imperialism history. You don't see the Mongols being ashamed that their ancestors conquered half of Eurasia. You don't see the Chinese being ashamed for assimilating everyone into the Han Chinese. If you are ashamed of your heritage, why should immigrants and foreigners assimilate? What is there to assimilate to?

Also people talk about culture or religion. Well maybe in my culture we don't allow head-wear. We think it is dehumanizing, oppressive, and divisive. If my religious culture is to be a Sikh and carry a Sikh sword, does everyone else have to accommodate that no matter where I am?

If that is the case then in my religious culture, I get to be completely naked everywhere I go and I get to carry my automatic rifles as part of my daily prayer ritual. Can anyone stop me? It's my religious culture.

Of course not, sunglasses have nothing to do with Islam.

What about the freedom to wear the veil?

I agree with courtesy, not with making it illegal. Try forcing an orthodox jew to dress normal because its common courtesy, id like to see that happen without being called antisemitic for enforcing it.

If this happened in the US we would be labeled as bigots and racist but because this is in Europe it's totally all right.

Bullshit. It's a way to hide racism/sectarianism. No one is saying "remove your sunglasses, I can't see your eye expressions".

Go ninja go ninja go!

They're in France. They could try to make an effort. When my girl friends went to Dubai, they wore the veil. Because that's how they do there. In France you don't wear the veil.

I believe the law also covers other openly displayed religious symbols such as crucifix’s etc (edit: in regards to your point about Schools, isn;t all french education secular?)

Also of course we make a moral judgement, it’s is naïve to think this argument is not about morals and ethics. It is the French people choosing (through their democratically elected reps) how they want their society to be formed, morally and ethically.

The French people have a fundamental right to say “The veil is not French, we do not want it” just as a Muslim can say “the veil is moral and we want it”, and democracy wins out in the end.

This is about fraternity and equality, regardless of how the law is written, it is the French people saying we do not believe the veil should be part of France, that covered women have no place in our society, the way the law is written is simply a politically expedient way of getting this set in legislation, and yes it does specifically target Muslims because clearly the French people are saying the way some Muslims choose to live their lives is anathema to French society. There is nothing immoral in that statement either.

TL;DR the French have a fundamental right to decide the veil has no place in their society, if they so choose.

I'm curious, but when I was in East Asia I saw a lot of people wear those medical/surgical masks in public.

There was a combination of reasons, from those actually being sick and not wanting to infect others to simply women who wanted to go out but not be seen without makeup (that was actually a very common reason).

So would those medical/surgical masks also be illegal in France? Also, what about just scarves in general when it's cold?

Tourists aside, why does everybody assume that Muslim women who are targeted by this law aren't French citizens?

This is either bs or your friends are too stupid to notice that people in dubai dont really wear those veils.

Their god doesn't say to wear it.

Funny thing is, it doesn't say anything about covering up in the Kor'an

From a legal standpoint, no, and especially not in this case. She was ejected from an opera house which is private property, much like a bank.

Que

Cue, or queue. You want the former, however.

If you look at how many women from Islamic Countries wear a full face veil compared to western countries you will find it is more common in the West

bullshit

I always believed that if some god wanted women to cover up their faces, he'd have designed them with a veil to begin with.

That never happened, so for these religious people, wouldn't NOT wearing a veil truly respect the god they worship? They're then showing their faces as they were naturally created.

Not if you're at a ski resort. Context matters, and pretty much everyone in French society knows it's a religious thing and that the person is most likely harmless, especially if they're attending an opera.

They just hate that religion. It's tied to their principle minority group and their sign of "our society being undermined by foreigners." So there's laws to restrict change to their culture by that introduced foreign element.

/sub/thathappened

Have you been to /sub/news? Lots of Americans talking about "how terrible blacks and other minorities are."

Don't know what it is about the news subreddits.

Yeah fucking Islam and it's prejudice against men

I think European redditors just have a problem with racism. In /sub/politics Americans don't go ranting about how terrible blacks and other minorities are. Even illegal immigrants don't get too much flak in there.

We need this law in Canada

Some "deputés" (right wing) rised the idea to not allow veil in all public areas and a project of law (projet de loi) was created in the Parliament. But the Constitutional Council said that this law was unconstitutional because it's focused only on one part of the population : the muslims. So they changed it to a law which forbide all people to cover their face in a matter of Security. There was nothing about "Equality, Liberty and Fraternity".

In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread.

I always believed that if some god wanted women to cover up their faces, he'd have designed them with a veil to begin with.

If god wanted women to wear clothes, he'd have designed them with clothes to begin with.

It also makes people with those ideological beliefs (which are ingrained in them from childhood and family and other important sources of identity) feel like outsiders if their beliefs are under attack, which makes them more likely to feel socially ostracized, and are more likely to become extremists and lash out against the community that rejected them.

As someone living in the middle east, I see an interesting trend. Since it is not culturally necessary to cover your children before puberty, most young girls get to wear dresses, global styles, and jewlery, and many of the mothers embrace it in their daughters. When the daughters grow up, more and more mothers let their daughters decide how they want to dress (many of which wish they could too, but don't want to change how they have dressed their entire lives). That is, if you make Muslims feel welcomed in a globalized world or specific cosmopolitan communities, they will increasingly embrace liberalized identities anyway. Beauty and individualization are persuasive forces that are innate within all humans. It takes extremism or dedication to completely ignore it, and not all mothers want to force that on their daughters like their parents did to them.

the veil dehumanizes. it's a human without a face. you don't know who you are talking to, no individual identity. you have no basic social facial cues, expression. you might as well be talking to a piece of furniture cover the hair, fine cover the face? no, fundamentally incompatible with a society that values acceptance and equality your religious beliefs are not more important than your humanity. if you think they are, you are the problem

You know, I talk to people on the phone and still see them as a human being. You can trust someone without seeing them.

Exactly. That tirade was nothing more than an attempt to rationalize using the law to attack Islam.

Uncovered faces as the foundation of liberal society. Absolutely absurd.

I find a crucifix to be pretty distasteful but I wouldn't have a woman embarrassingly ejected from the Opera because of it.

If you wore a crucifix or a bikini to an opera in Saudi Arabia you'd probably get kicked out too. Hell if you wore a bikini to an opera in Paris they'd tell you to go home and get changed.

When my girl friends went to Dubai, they wore the veil.

Why? Veils are not even that common here in Dubai. Source, I live here. And given 90% of the population are expats, the vast vast majority of women here don't even cover their hair, and usually wear jeans/dresses like most other places in the world. Going to Saudi Arabia, that makes more sense, but Dubai, it is entirely unnecessary. If they wore a veil here, they would stand out more than if they had not.

Batman

and democracy wins out in the end.

"Democracy is not freedom. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to eat for lunch. Fr...

She is a woman who has no desire to mix with society or be part of it. Then she shouldnt expect people to give a shit about her if she isolates herself from them. Her decision. She pays the price for that . No Sympathy.

I'm Lebanese and have lived in Saudi Arabia for a third of my life. But this attire is purely oppressive and has no place in today's society. None

That's absolutely ridiculous though. Wearing a hat has absolutely nothing to do with Equality with your fellow man. There's a law in Canada that bans the use of face covering masks while protesting, and it's not because of Equality, it's because of privacy.

Law is the law, how many countries in the middle east would beat, rape or or kill a woman for not wearing one of these. Only fair a little reverse pressure is asserted.

The number of people saying these laws are good is disturbing. She was out, trying to expose herself to high culture (I mean opera, not western culture. That could've sounded really bad. She wasn't being held captive by her husband. She was out for night on the town, sitting in her seat,listening to a show. SO who's the oppressive one? The dude (or lack thereof) who let her go out to the opera, or the group of people who kicked her out of a show she paid for because of how she was dressed. This is no better than Saudi culture condemning women for NOT wearing a niqab.

She is a woman who has no desire to mix with society or be part of it.

How is this one act proof of that. For all you know she could be a positive and integral part of her local community. But that doesn't fit in nice and simply with the 'veil = total opt out' idea.

That's done for health reasons. I doubt anyone would have a problem with wearing an article of clothing if it was to maintain one's health. One serves a functional purpose the other doesn't.

when I lived in Syria, men would dress that way and walk into stores and rob clerks because no one would ever suspect it

why? is it common to robs operas?

...she didn't do her home work now, did she? not an excuse. How would a woman walking down the street topless with just a thong fare in this gulf state country of hers? would a "I didn't know/that's how we do it back home" excuse work in that case?

Didn't know it wasn't a religious practice. Thanks for the tidbit, stranger!

You know that religion and culture, despite being tied, are two different things right?

I don't get why this is so difficult.

Can a homosexual tourist go to a muslim country and demand accommodation ?

Muslims who practice pedophilia by engaging in sexual inercourse with underage brides, can they visit western countries and have sex with their wives ??

If you go to another country, you explicity agree to be bound by the governing laws of that country. IT'S THAT SIMPLE .

Actually, it's illegal to cover your face in Canada if you're in a protest. So there's a tiny step toward the type of repressive bullshit they have in France.

What if you wear one of those medical/surgical masks? I noticed that it was really common in East Asia, especially Japan.

Because it is racism. The only social engineering a government has a role in intra-group, like discrimination, not inter-group, like basic cultural norms.

"The Phantom of the Opera has come tonight? Well, eject him too!"

So? If I was in Saudi Arabia I'd disagree with that behaviour too. Just because they do that should everyone?

law is law so if you went to Saudi Arabia and you were forced to wear a headscarf it would be fine?