I really wish other atheists wouldn't do this, because it makes us look like a bunch of fucking idiots.
I don't like Christians either, but they're not running around beheading people and regularly engaging in suicide bombings.
Yeah, I'm a little fuzzy on when the Southern Baptists murdered thousands, engaged in mass rape and enslavement as punishment, wiped entire towns off the map, and committed public executions of people who didn't support them.
Seriously, I don't like evangelicals and want to build a massive wall between church and state, but there is a world of difference between them and actual extremist groups.
The Taliban publicly executed people who spoke out against Islam and didn't allow woman to leave the house without a male relative. Woman also couldn't study past the age of eight and could only study the Koran. Breaking these rules also risked execution.
So I hate comparisons like this. It just makes atheists look like idiots.
This title reminds me of a talk given by Matt Dillahunty called, "Hyperbole will Destroy the World."
Evangelicals may believe some radical things and influence American politics to a degree, however they are orders of magnitude less extreme than the Taliban.
Here's Afghanistan in the 1960s or 70s:
We, too, can slip up and give power to people who normalize barbarism.
Islamic terror groups are really horrible, and this is disrespectful to their victims.
Yeah I remember the WBC beheading people with chainsaws.
No that's rich liberal people in Afghanistan at university who lived like that for around 20 years, outside of that bubble not much has changed. The US on the other hand has been a western liberal democracy since it's inception, the US is also unlikely to be invaded several times leading to long periods of resistance fighting that would lead to some equivalent to the Taliban to come into control. Not that there is anything remotely similar to the Taliban in the US.
Yeah, I'm a little fuzzy on when the Southern Baptists murdered thousands, engaged in mass rape and enslavement
Fun fact. The "Southern" Baptists split off from the Northern Baptists in the 19th century over a disagreement about slavery. The Southern Baptists wanted to continue it.
I see posts from this sub pop-up on /sub/all from time to time, but this has to be the dumbest thing I've seen come out of it yet.
Yes, not wanting to bake a cake for a gay couple is exactly the same as throwing gay people off the roof or stoning them.
Fucking nailed it.
Christians believe women are property
I know a fair few christians. None of them believe that.
Already on it. Though personally I've always liked "Y'all Queada" better. It's a little catchier, and it pisses off my Texan family more.
What kind of sheltered, misinformed, lack of perspective do you have to have to think that the actions of American evangelicals are at all comparable to the actions of the Taliban?
No, they would not. This is ridiculous.
"It's time to start calling America for what it is. Afghanistan."
Am I doing clickbait right???
If given the ability to enact religious law in the US, I have no doubt evangelicals would develop into an equivalent Taliban. The only thing that prevents this is they lack access to power, which we must keep from them.
Why cross out mass rape? It was legal to rape your wife until the 70s. Christians believe women are property, the argument for being able to rape your wife was literally that the bible says once two people are married they become one and you can't rape yourself. It was literally legal for all married women to be raped by their husbands at any time and the justification for that was the bible.
You should study up on US history because Southern Baptists literally did enslave millions and kill thousands of black people. They started the bloodiest war in US history because their right to own other people was threatened. They burned down black neighborhoods, had public lynchings, and abused the judicial system to imprison minorities. Even today, there are more black people in prison for non-violent crimes than were ever owned as slaves.
Seriously, why do people upvote such complete BS, shitposty garbage? This is not atheism or rationalism. This is fear mongering and hate. Seriously, we can and should do better.
I completely agree that religious laws are bad for everyone. But, the Taliban came into existence after a decade of war that killed millions and left an entire country in ruin. They didn't come to power by legislation. They literally invaded the capital and overthrew the government.
Let's keep our battles in perspective if we want to be taken seriously.
The WBC is not a terrorist organization and there isn't very many of them. So no I don't think they would start beheading people, they've never been violent, theyre just really good at pissing people off.
ANYTHING could happen of course but that's not a valid argument. It would take an event that would destroy our society as we know it to even come close to what happened in Iran.
As a society we are definitely moving forward change takes time but we're definitely not putting homosexuals in asylums anymore. Hell most right wingers have accepted marriage equality. So please don't act like the sky is falling. Yes it's funny to call then ya'llqueda because it points out their hypocrisy but it's not a fair comparison not by a looking shot.
Stop it. This isn't true.
I think what he meant to say is their doctrine advocates the treatment of women as property.
The Westboro baptist Church is a small family of lawyers who capitalize on being douche bags to make settlement money
Not a religiously based governing body who promotes foreign and domestic terrorism and ruthless abolition of governments to influence politics and gain power
I disagree. They're very much like the Taliban prior to the US/Afghan war. The Taliban weren't suicide bombing then because they were in control.
What is similar is their ideologies. They both want to force others to live by their religious rules. They both used the power of the state to attempt to keep their rules in place: The Taliban banned girls from education, while in America you see southern states trying to use every opportunity to enact laws against LGBT rights.
You're conflating the Taliban with al Qaeda and ISIS. Crude lawless violence like you described is what radical groups do when they don't control the levers of power. The Taliban was running Afghanistan in the same way Iran and Saudi Arabia are governed. While I think Islam is worse, Christian evangelicals are absolutely responsible for many atrocious policies. They supported the Iraq war to the end, funded kill-the-gays laws in Africa, support Israeli settlements, prop up the war on drugs that disproportionately imprisons poor minorities, etc. All evangelicals -whether Christian, Muslim, or Jewish are basically fascists because theocracy is incompatible with actual democracy.
I see that picture posted a lot around here. While it is sad what has happened to Afghanistan's major cities (I believe this was taken in Kabul), it's important to remember that this was never the norm for the majority of the country.
The majority of the people in Afghanistan live in small mountainous villages, where things have remained culturally unchanged for centuries.
Source: spent the better part of 3 years of my life there.
Why is it when a Christian bombs something or goes on a shooting spree they are "clinically insane" but if a Muslim does it they are "Radical Islamic Terrorists"? Tim McVeigh was a Christian. The dude in Savannah... Christian... the Movie shooter in Colorado? Christian... the Columbine killers? Christian. It's goes on and on.
I've witnessed a terrorist bombing in Atlanta, GA. The perpetrator was a Christian, he was motivated by Christian ideology, he set off many bombs that targeted all sorts of people, and he was aided by Christians while he was on the run from the law.
Ironically, this comparison aptly shows how ridiculous the perspective being expressed here, that all the (from your perspective) "out-of-touch" atheists who hold this view are doing, is whining.
You really think for a second that the WBC wouldn't start beheading people if they were put in a position where they had the power to run everything?
Fundamentalist Christianity does not go around beheading people in the United States right now, because they haven't convinced a lot of people that it's "necessary", and they won't as long as progress against conservatism continues to be made. But if it doesn't, people like them wouldn't hesitate.
Christianity has every bit as violent a past as any other religion, and regressives anywhere in the world can pressure their society to slip into regressivism. We are not immune to that. I'm sure the freedom-enjoying, carefree Iranians scoffed at their society ever becoming what it is now, before the Iranian revolution.
Being able to tell where something is headed, what the eventual endgame of it is, and trying to warn about that is not useless hand-wringing or exaggeration, because this criticism of American fundamentalism is not exaggeration, it's prediction. It is not about the current state, it's about where it has the potential to head.
We can identify and order world religious problems by severity, and oppose the worst ones first. But that doesn't mean that lesser ones which share the same irrational basis get a free pass, just because we've temporarily stripped them of the power to do it.
Like, maybe the westboro baptist church, but literally everyone hates them and they only exist because their legal strategy is "cmon hit me!"
And that in no way makes the current believers anything like ISIS or the Taliban.
You should study up on US history because Southern Baptists literally did enslave millions and kill thousands of black people.
Post hoc =/= propter hoc. Was the reason the South was pro-slavery biblical or commercial, given the need for cheap labour on the plantations?
O look. Someone watched the newsroom.
People who compare the Taliban as they are now to Evangelicals as they are now and say that they are not alike are correct and are missing the point.
The Taliban did not start out as a murderous totalitarian movement. They started out as a loudmouthed fringe political movement with a radical and opressive religious agenda.
It is in that sense that the Taliban and American Evangelicals are exactly alike and completely the same.
Anyone who thinks that given power the Evangelicals will not devolve into exactly the kind of "do as we say or be killed" group of people doesn't really understand the mindset of these people. They would love to execute people for not obeying their religious dogma. They can't. Because this is a secular nation. But they would love to.
I mean, there are some parallels, but they sort of shot their credibility with the hyperbolic title.
None of us did that, you mean our ancestors which is quite apples to oranges since these people are doing this shit TODAY.
How delusional can you get? You are advocating for the demise of your way of life. If you get what you want you wont be allowed to speak in public anymore. Nor will you be allowed to speak to a man.
Stop breaking sharia law.
Here is an actual person who has an actual agenda today, unlike everything you just brought up as if it was relevant.
Which is exactly what they're trying to do with Betsy Devos. Have you not been paying attention for the past few months?
Not allowing gay marriage does not equal beheading and stoning.
Do you think if the evangelical right had power in the US they would be like the Taliban in their ideology and action?
Nope. No evidence for that which I've come across.
If you really believe that's all that is stopping them from becoming a taliban equivalent...then you're a fucking idiot.
Go study the taliban.
Ugh. Views like that are what keep us from having an open dialogue with one another. We're all human, quit acting like we're so different.
They would start throwing gay people off buildings and stoning women who have premarital sex or cheat on their husbands? Really?
You know they wouldn't. Even Westboro Baptist Church wouldn't actually kill anyone. Knock it off.
The distinction between people who kill other people and people who don't is forgotten way too often when talking about religious crimes on here. There is an insurmountable difference between your mildly racist great aunt and the Taliban. Your aunt won't burn off the face of a little girl for learning to read.
They are definitely much closer to the Muslim brotherhood where they just have an immense amount of political power instead of beheading and torturing people.
Do Evangelicals behead and torture? No? Then stop glorifying the Taliban.
If people can't see the numerous and obvious differences between the religions of the world we are going to have some big problems soon.
This is a moderate, reasonable Muslim for example.
This is such an extreme view. If you close the door on them they won't blow themselves up
Funnily enough, yes I did. Because it was 7-900 years ago, and things have moved on since then. I no more believe that todays christians have the same mindset as the crusaders than I believe that Romanians are all like Vlad the Impaler. It's an intrinsically stupid concept.
But I thought folks like ISIS aren't "real" muslims? And yeah we fought the Taliban when they refused to give up Osama Bin Laden but we supported and funded them when they were fighting off Russians. I feel like calling Evangelicals the Taliban brings in a lot of baggage not necessarily related to religion or beliefs and seems like kind of a low blow.
In this neck of the wood most Christians are either Church of England or Catholics. Neither organisation advocates the treatment of women as property.
But they advocate for the woman to be subservient to her husband. And the bible promotes spousal rape.
"So basically what you are saying is . . ."
Not even close, if you guys can only win by building and then attacking strawmen, perhaps you should rethink your stance on the subject.
So if someone tells me that they are a democrat I should blame them for enslaving millions and killing thousands of black people? If not, please tell me what the difference is.
The Taliban banned girls from education, while in America you see southern states trying to use every opportunity to enact laws against LGBT rights.
Making it impossible to get a basic education is a bit different than being allowed to say you're married...
What does anything have to do with FOX news...?
And the fact that you quote a site "religioustolerance.org" makes it obvious that no matter the argument, you won't take your head out of your ass and try to be objective.
Good day, sir.
The same as most postmodern atheists. It's pathetic.
Is that happening somewhere in the US? Are there places where that's even close to happening?
Sounds wise but no one is ignoring history.
A lot of people are ignoring the present though.
Reality is that Evangelical Christianity is slowly dying in America both in absolute numbers and as a percentage of all Christians.
According to Pew Research the percentage of Christians identifying as Evangelical was 26.3 percent in 2004 and 7 years later it had dropped to 25.4.
Also relevant is that 42 percent of Americans who are religious have or will switch religions in their lifetimes. This is also from Pew Research.
Since people are trying to frame this conversation with 100 year context I think it would be interesting to look at actual numbers from those 100 years to see if there actually is a growing threat from Evangelical Christians.
So in 1948 68 percent of Americans not just Christians but all Americans identified as Protestant of which Evangelical Protestant is a lesser subgroup.
Today that number is 38 percent. Evangelicals within that group are an even smaller percentage than historically.
In 1948 95 percent of Americans identified as part of a religious group of any kind, today that number is 74 percent when looking at the same source. (Gallup polls) So Evangelical Christians are a shrinking group inside a shrinking group.
I agree we should look at history, I just question if your side is actually doing that.
To me it just looks like fear mongering of the worst sort.
Evangelical Christians are nothing like the Taliban and never will be like them for several major reasons as history shows.
The Taliban rose in nations that had power vacuums and great injustice at the same time for extended periods of time combined with little or no education.
None of that is the case in America.
There is a ZERO percent chance we will let Evangelicals get that kind of power here.
There is no power vacuum in America.
There is plenty of education in America.
The group everyone is afraid of is getting less and less powerful and less and less populous.
I agree history is very important.
"Jesus Camp" sure makes that one church look like the Taliban anyway. And the people running it were clueless, the filmmakers just needed to sit there rolling their cameras and the church itself was totally oblivious about how it would look to the outside world as they gladly performed for the camera.
From Kansas. Was raising in southern Arkansas and Texas. Was raised Southern Baptist. I know Christian evangelicals well. Comparing them to the Taliban is absurd and ridiculous. People in this thread need to face reality and stop acting like Islam is not the bigger threat to freethought right now.
This is a moderate, reasonable Muslim for example.
Ask any Southern Baptist this question. "Do you believe that one day, hopefully soon, every knee shall bow to Jesus?"
And if you don't speak their language they will think you are trying to be better than them... Due to the war on education that this country has been going through.
You can't win with the far right.
It's been over 30 years since the last time the KKK lynched a black man:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Michael_Donald
I consider that real progress. I just wish, like so many demand of other denominations, that the Christians who do not support the extremists would clearly denounce them and take the name "evangelical" back.
Where I've grown up it was 1/4, Catholic and 3/4 Baptist, Methodist etc. A good portion of the families I grew up with didn't believe the wife was equal, and core family values, as the put it. Wife cooks, cleans, deals with the kids and waits on her husband.
Not a huge portion, maybe 1/4 at most were of that mindset. But an even larger portion were forbidden from wearing anything but long sleeve shirts and ankle denim skirts in the 100+ degree heat.
So it's not a huge portion, but a lot of southern Baptists, especially from older families 100% do believe these things as fact, not necessarily the right to rape your wife though.
I mean it's one thing to bash Christians for the Salem witch trials or the Spanish Inquisition but to bash them for owning slaves? That's a little ridiculous solely because owning slaves was a luxury, a commodity and widely employed throughout the world.
Ah yes, because the religion only matters when the perpetrator is Muslim, everyone else must be "criminally insane".
Call them what they are: religious extremists, insidious theocrats
I just love it when people argue what a "true'' christian believes..
OP is completley out of touch with reality.
Sounds like the crusades. They have a history of violence and murder in the Jim Crow South. If you give the radical christian sect in America power in the government, they will enact their own religious law. A minority in a religion that pushes its agenda into the government is exactly how organizations like the Taliban got started. Luckily our institutions have proven robust enough to resist them so far. I'm glad it hasn't happened yet, but that doesn't mean they aren't capable of it. We should be wary of the lengths they will go to to force their religion on others. That's what it means to be evangelical. And there's plenty in America that are radicalized too. The major difference is they have been kept out of power in the US and so have been unable to enforce their beliefs on the rest of us. If they could, I do not doubt it would become like the Taliban and we'd probably see another round of crusades even.
Jesus Christ. No. No. The Civil War was not based on the Southern Baptist. Nor was the events that happened in the 1960s. You realize not just the south or religious people were racist, right?
Not to mention that the crusades were not exactly unprovoked.
You can find christians killing - it doesn't take much to find them. They'll drag someone behind their truck, they'll shoot up a clinic...
When people liken what's going on here to what happened in the middle east, I think they're right, they're just not in the right time period.
Much like what happened in the islamic world in the 13th century, e're in danger of a religious group ending a golden age. Before that, the islamic world was advancing science and reason faster than anyone. You don't have to look much farther than the name of many math concepts - algebra, for example - to see their massive impact.
And what happened? In short, a religious group got control upended education. They burned the books. They made it cool to be ignorant. They popularized a religious viewpoint and turned the government into what they thought their holy book said it should be. The next generation was even more locked in than the one that started it. Their science culture faded and they really haven't recovered (only 2 nobel prize winners from muslim countries).
There are people in the united states trying very hard to start us down a similar path. They are trying to get their hands around science and education. They are trying to end public schools in favor of private schools (what they don't say is they hope they will be christian private schools that don't have to teach science).
Look at the current cabinet. Betsy DeVos is in a position to do exactly this. Under the guise of "choice" her efforts are two-fold: One is to give subsidies to rich people who can afford better schools (vouchers will only take off maybe 4k of a 10k to 15k pricetag, per year - more if you're somewhere like NY). The other is to increase participation of christian schools. They get pretty upset when they realize vouchers will go towards muslim schools too, but that hasn't slowed down the conversation lately like it used to.
At some point it became a mission for religious groups to out-breed and out-politic everyone else. The tea party was born from this. This isn't hyperbole, this is a thought-out long-term strategy. Here's an interesting article from someone who came from that group:
And the bible promotes spousal rape.
Neither CofE nor Catholicism sees the bible as its ultimate authority. Neither requires a bride to vow to 'obey' her husband.
I'm a southern baptist. You're an idiot. We run women's safety shelters for battered and abused women. Thanks for judging me though. Real nice of you.
I'm pretty sure that he understands what he's saying.
While they may be crazy they aren't asking their followers to kill in the name of God.
Dont ask him that, it ruins his narrative.
They [Evangelicals] would love to execute people for not obeying their religious dogma. They can't. Because this is a secular nation. But they would love to.
Do you even hear yourself?
I don't know why its so important for some people to equate islamic terrorism and christian terrorism when there clearly are nowhere near as many christian terrorists or terrorist attacks. Its pretty embarrassing that people are this dishonest with themselves. It's almost as if you're trying to defend Islam...on /sub/atheism. We get it, you hate Christianity more than Islam, no one cares here.
Historical don't mean shit. If I based my opinion of people on what their remote ancestors did I'd get nowhere in life. Those evangelicals I know - admittedly few - show no indication that if they were free to act as they pleased they'd become genocidal psychopaths.
But guys if it happened before I was born, it doesn't matter!
Seriously, Reddit has the memory of goldfish.
Everyone remembers the history of other people but their own crimes here. Eg Good guy bush, Peaceful Southern Baptists.
That didn't work during the crusades, inquisition, or Jim Crow. Christians will rationalize murder when it's convenient. Islam supposedly tells people not to murder either. They're both bad.
They have the same goals, this country simply does not allow them to exercise their will to the same extent. THAT is why they are orders of magnitude less violent. They are not orders of magnitude less religiously extreme.
Yes, because every religion is exactly the same.../s
And the Taliban actually does stuff. My Christian family just kind of yeehaws around complaining that "Trump fooled us!" but will probably vote for him when he runs again in 2020.
Evangelicals are a specific type of christian that wants to impose their beliefs on others. I say, and hope, they are the minority. If you think they are the majority then I would be much more worried.
1.) What "radical Christian sect" are you even referring to in a realistic sense? 2.) It sure sounds like you have very little knowledge of the history of the crusades.
Edit: 3.) You maybe ought to read up on the history of the Taliban; it'd never happen in America as we know it.
His argumentation is off, but I don't think his point is. The Christian right has been trying for decades to co-opt the educational system and use it to push religious propaganda, even suppressing basic points of science like evolution or climate change. DeVos's ideology of pushing "school choice" to open up possibilities for religious private schools means that federal funding could be used to support religiously oriented education at the expense of art, foreign language, science, and math.
On the other hand, if America was a shitty, drought, ridden war torn, illiterate, desert, and the Middle East was an economic and human rights bastion, I'm sure you'd have more blowing up Christians and less blowing up Muslims. Intellectually, they are the same, they have just been pushed to different extremes by their environments.
aren't we, by definition, trying to be better than them?
not egotistical, not pompus, just a better class of being?
fighting fire with fire is not a good idea, think it was twain that said an idiot will always beat you with experience if you lower yourself to their level (paraphrasing) and it is true.
to be better, we have to BE better.
No. Yet again, people overreacting just as bad as the side they dislike.
Nah, maybe The Evangelical Brotherhood?
That's why this post is stupid.
That's like saying punk music should have been stopped because it could have turned into violent revolution. Have some perspective.
I blame Afghanistan on a radical religious minority.
Christians in the US are currently the majority, but the radical evangelicals are a minority that are disproportionately vocal. I would not refer to our founders as radical evangelicals. The current radicals do want to impose their religious beliefs with 'religious liberty' bills or the more extreme bombings or hate crimes.
Not to mention it is a practice FAR older than christianity itself.
How about imprisoning you for existing?
How about making it legal to discriminate against you?
How about being beaten or killed?
If you think the only threat to gays in America is not being able to get married, you need to educate yourself.
Which has nothing at all to do with the current discussion or anyone alive.
I wonder why so many people have the same irrelevant point in this thread?
The truth is only outlandish if you refuse to accept it.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
There is no reasoning with zealots. If they get into power they will force their beliefs on others and will punish those who disobey. It is and always has been thus.
People who deny that Evangelicals are like the Taliban in all but the amount of influence they exert do not know what they are talking about.
I can kind of see it in end goals of religious entanglement with people's personal lives and laws. Though I would prefer y'all queda because it's more light hearted but conveys the seriousness of the concern for the level of willful ignorance being displayed by evangelicals in regards to Christian openly religious non secular control of government and how violent it usually ended up historically.
You didn't have to be a Christian to believe that 50 years ago.
"We're doing it, but they're doing it too. I know it's bad no matter who does it, but if they'd just stop then we could stop too so it's their fault"Numerous groups throughout history who perpetuate a wrongdoing to match their opponent, continuing a cycle of misinformation that prevents healthy dialogue.
Maybe we should all just try to avoid hyperbolic clickbait regardless of what others are doing?
That was one of the best aliases that came out of that whole Bundy Militia thing. I've always liked Yokel Haram.
There is absolutely no comparison between the two. The Taliban make the Westboro Baptist Church look like good people. Seriously. Knock it off.
Disagree. He was a Christian. You cannot grow up and practice a religion without it having causation on your actions. He identified as a Christian.
If he had been Muslim it darn sure would have been a consideration factor to people.
I'm sure they thought the same thing in Iran and Afghanistan.
And I am referring to the religious minority that wants to impose its religious beliefs in a country. If they are able to enact its religious laws on the rest of us, do you really think they'll stop with gay marriage and abortion? Just because they are currently unable to enforce their beliefs through force, it would be foolish to think they wouldn't if they had the power.
Apples to oranges if they mean in the afterlife.
If they mean now, show me a video of that please, I have never met anyone who has said that. If there is no video, go ask "any Southern Baptist" and record it for me.
Until then I am unconvinced by your claims.
I did not just reject them however I did a youtube search for your terms and others as well as a google video search. I didn't find what you claim all Southern Baptists think.
I think maybe you are just confusing them reciting Philippians 2:9-11 and taking it literally.
That is all those searches resulted in at least.