Israel endorses independent Kurdish state
The Israelis have been providing support and purchasing Kurdish oil for years. This has been a long time coming.
Turkey already does
Tomorrow's headline: Turkey endorses independent Palestinian state
What does ISIS and little miss muffet have in common? They both have Kurds in their way
USA gave Iraqi Kurds autonomy as well. The Kurdish regions in Iraq were (for the most part) our allies in the Iraq war.
And not just that, Turkey also openly supports Hamas. Erdogan met with Hamas leaders several times.
If an independent Kurdish state was established I could see it being a large, stable partner in an otherwise tumultuous region. Much like how Israel is for the US/ NATO
Turkey also openly supports Hamas
As does nearly every other Islamic nation.
The US also betrayed the Kurds again and again when it was convenient.
You know that whole gassing the Kurds things that Saddam did? It happend mostly back when the US Iraq was an ally of the US.
Then came the first gulf war and the US told the Kurds to rise up against Saddam and then calmer heads realized that taking out Saddam would be madness as it would destabilize the entire region and lead to very bad things. The Kurds who had risen up against Saddam suddenly found themselves in a very bad situation however.
The US did at least establish a no fly zone to protect them a bit.
then some Saudi's flew some planes into skyscrapers and the US decided the reasonable thing would be to stir up trouble in Iraq again. They again told the Kurds to support them, but the US also needed the support of Turkey for their invasion so the promises of an autonomous state where at best half hearted
Then shit went from bad to worse.
Edit: Iraq not US where crossed out above.
...and then Saddam oppressed and murdered them throughout the 80s and 90s.
Israel offered the conquered territory back days after the war in exchange for guarantees of peace. Egypt agreed and got Sinai back. Jordan didn't and now we have the West Bank.
That whole debacle is one of the most complex foreign policy issues on the planet. Good luck trying to untangle it.
That Turkey is very very different from current Turkey. Erdogans wife is Arab.
I mean who doesn't like Humus?? Idk if I'd like it with turkey though. Maybe on a sandwich together or something.
I'm a supporter of an independent Kurdistan, but it could be very unstable state, possibly leading to another war. Iraq obviously wants to hang onto it and Turkey, Syria and Iran will probably be scared that Iraqi Kurdistan seceding from Iraq might get their Kurds to try to do the same thing. And an independent Kurdistan could also be safe haven for the PKK and other groups who try to secede from Turkey, Syria and Iran by force.
Sadly this gets lost in the wash of news. Israel has always supported two states by definition. The U.N charter that was accepted by Israel but rejected by the Palestinians stated two states to be created.
Good. The Kurds in Iraq have suffered a lot and deserve their own country. They literally suffered genocide
humus = dirt mixed with shit
hummus = delicious garbanzo bean paste
There was no typo.
Actually, Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr (Saddam's predecessor) did that in the 1970s.
Israel's official stance weirdly enough also endorses an independent Palestinian state. Obviously Benjamin Netanyahu is full of shit considering everything he's done otherwise.
Yep. It's pretty hard to find peace when the other side rejects any peace that does not involve complete Israel destruction.
People in the West tend not to see that, nor all the violence they have to live through. Just "something something apartheid something something they're just throwing rocks".
What state wouldn't do that to their neighbors if the neighbors were hostile?
Israel is talking about the Iraq referendum, not about Syria. Read the article next time
Israel supports the establishment of a Kurdish state, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Wednesday, as Kurds in Iraq gear up for a referendum on independence that lawmakers in Baghdad oppose.
Turkey (Erdogan's AKP to be specific) has actually vocally supported an independent Kurdish state, but only if it's ruled by Iraqi Kurdistan's KDP, and not the PUK/PKK/PYD/etc. I know the whole "TURKEY HATEZ KURDZ" circlejerk, but the reality is Turkey is arguably Iraqi Kurdistan's largest ally in the region. Turkey doesn't hate all Kurds, just the PKK and those groups that provide assistance and forces to the PKK (aka PYD, PUK, PJAK, etc).
The reality is though, an independent Kurdistan, no matter what Kurdish political party rules it, will rattle the entire region and has the very real possibility to engulf the whole region into total war.
If an independent Kurdistan happens, Iraq will go straight to Iran's influence for protection, something they've started doing already. This would put a direct land connection between Iran and Saudi Arabia for Iran to funnel resources towards Saudi Arabia. That will never stand for the gulf states, and at best, you'll have a proxy war raging, and at worst, a full multi-state war between Iran and Saudi Arabia. Not just that, but it would give Iran a land connection to within just 75 miles of Jerusalem, which in itself is a threat to regional peace.
I love the Kurdish people and want them to have their own state, but not at the sake of the incredibly dangerous geopolitical ramifications it would have, at least at this current time. As it stands, greater autonomy, with a unified territory in Iraq and Syria, would be best for the time being.
Since Trump, the US is no longer an ally of the US.
Actually French and German companies give the chemicals to make chemicals weapons. And the Soviet Union give them the plants and technical skills to build and operate them.
Don't forget that America sold saddam half the formula
That's an urban legend. Iraq's chemical weapons equipment mostly came from France and Germany. The "formulas" for the weapons had been common knowledge for decades.
Ironically enough the kurds actually played a big role in the Armenian Genocide.
Sophistry. All borders exist by pushing into others. Israel was granted the land, then defended their claim against the entire Arab world -- twice.
As far as international politics goes, you can't get a firmer claim than "the International community agreed on it, then we defended it".
The International Community wants a two-state solution.
Israel wants a two-state solution.
The only snag is that Palestine's political structure is vehemently opposed to any and all peace solution that does not involve Israel's destruction. No two-state, no compromise, they've declared war on Israel's very existence. In opposition to all attempts at peace, in opposition to the desires of the International Community.
It's not without reason that Palestinians on the West Bank have an easier time than Palestinians in Gaza. Stubbornly refuse any peaceful solution while going on a military offensive (these aren't just rocks they're flinging), and your neighbour is going to react accordingly.
Eh, they supported us throughout the Iraq War and didn't shoot any of us.
Not going to say we're particularly good or reliable, but they still seem to like us. Probably because we only fuck them over half the time while everyone else fucks them over all of the time.
1: Its Hummus.
2: Its actually pretty delicious on turkey in a sandwich. Started using Hummus instead of avocado on my toast and now I own a house.
There's always a motive for countries endorsing or condemning actions that seemingly don't affect them.
For example, Spain not recognising Kosovo as an independent state for fear of it being used against them in the issue of Catalonia's independence.
Fun fact: Turkey is the first Muslim-majority country to recognise Israel just to spite the Arabs. So, any empty rhetoric from the Turks to support the Palestinians is just hot air.
Divide and conquer is just a tactic, it's no inherently evil.
Those neighbors are anti-Israel, kurds are pro-israel and not for political reasons, kurds have been friends with Israel for a long time, it's all around a good idea.
So yeah, fuck arab states, go kurds and Israel.
I am embarrassed you call yourself a tarheel, but please tell everyone how jews never lived in that area called palestine and have no claim to the land.
when the US was an ally of the US.
Israel supports an independent Palestine, Palestine doesn't support an independent Israel
It has more to do with Turkey's changing political atmosphere and the growth of Islamism and Neo-Ottomanism than any one specific event.
Erdoğan is making Turkey more politically active in the region than ever before and he is tightening the bond with the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia. It's part of the growing sectarian division between Sunni and Shiite, with the Israeli Jews and Christian minorities caught in the middle.
Oh my god my new favorite joke
Israel endorses divide and conquer, i.e. weakening its neighbors for its own self-interests.
Who would've thought?
all the problems in the middle east boil down to that last paragraph:
Kurds have sought an independent state since at least the end of World War One, when colonial powers divided up the Middle East after the collapse of the multi-ethnic Ottoman Empire.
Israel's main goal is to start an uprising among the Kurdish minority in Iran, but it's unlikely to succeed.
If an independent Kurdistan happens, Iraq will go straight to Iran's influence for protection, something they've started doing already. This would put a direct land connection between Iran and Saudi Arabia for Iran to funnel resources towards Saudi Arabia.
Meh. That started happening as soon as the US took out Saddam and since that fateful decision, there was/is nothing we could ever do to stop it. Iraq has always been majority Shia (65%) and minority Sunni (30%) and Saddam was Sunni and his iron rule kept Sunnis in power and Iranian (Shia) influence at bay.
To say that Kurdish independence makes a significant difference either way is very misleading. The Shias in the current Iraqi government are just looking for any excuse to tell the West to fuck off so that they can get closer to their co-sectarians in Iran. If it wasn't an independent Kurdistan it would be anything else.
what on earth does the second half of your post have to do with the first
Thank you. The US provided technical and intel support to Iraq in the 80s. The irony is that actual lethal American weapons went to Iran, not Iraq. It's like no one remembers Iran-Contra, the biggest scandal of the 80s.
Syria and Iraq are actually small possibilities, since their armies are pretty occupied. Turkey and Iran would destroy any serious uprising within days.
Turkey actively supports Hamas, it's not just hot air.
LOL that you think they are doing this for altruistic reasons
He never said that. Just because it's done for cynical political reasons doesn't mean we can't be happy for them.
Israel mostly support the Kurds because they oppose Assad.
From the article:
Israel has maintained discreet military, intelligence and business ties with the Kurds since the 1960s, viewing the minority ethnic group -- whose indigenous population is split between Iraq, Turkey, Syria and Iran -- as a buffer against shared Arab adversaries.
Assad was not there in the 60s... Not even the first Assad.
I thought it was common knowledge that European countries including my own UK supplied the chemical weapons and the US gave him strategic help whilst using them...
'Tehran felt a sense of isolation and betrayal after the United Nations verified Iraq’s repeated use chemical weapons, but the outside world still almost unanimously sided with Saddam Hussein. Iran’s neighbors aided him. Europeans and Russians sold him arms. The United States was complicit too. Washington provided Baghdad with intelligence on Iran’s equipment and troops strengths to help Iraq retake the Fao Peninsula in 1988. Iraq made widespread use of chemical weapons to win it back.'
Edit: From Wiki:
In 1985 a £14m chlorine plant known as "Falluja 2", built by Uhde Ltd, a UK subsidiary of a German company, was given financial guarantees by the UK's Export Credits Guarantee Department despite official UK recognition of a "strong possibility" the plant would be used to make mustard gas. The guarantees led to UK government payment of £300,000 to Uhde in 1990 after completion of the plant was interrupted by the first Gulf War. The plant was later highlighted by the US government as part of arguing for the legitimacy of the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
Britain was said to have exported thiodiglycol (a mustard gas precursor) and thionyl chloride (a nerve gas precursor) to Iraq in 1988 and 1989.
Jordan shouldnt have controlled the West Bank either though, it annexed it illegally.
hummus = delicious garbanzo bean paste
Damn I've been making hummus with chick peas...
"Dual use" equipment is generic stuff like centrfuges and computers, not the things you listed.
i don't know what world you live in but in this one Kurds only have autonomous status in Iraq. Syrian Kurds largely run their own affairs but that's because the Syrian government ran away when ISIS came knocking and the locals took it back for themselves, it wasn't granted by anybody.
Erdogan did an about face on the israeli relationship back at the time of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid
I'm not sure if the gaza flotilla was the reason for relations souring or it was just a coincidence in timing.
Indeed. This is Israel responding to the changing attitudes in Ankara towards them. They're letting Turkey know that Tel Aviv can play just as well as they can.
Why ? because the Palestinians rejected every Peace offer from Israel ??
Even when Israel has offered 98% of the disputed land ? but sure that will require talking with the Infidel Jews and accepting one of the numerous Peace proposals Israel has offered.. Oh, and their 'Leaders' would have to stop receiving Millions in 'Aid' from UK/EU that goes straight to their private accounts.. Oh, and they would need to actually take responsibility and fix stuff for their Population, not to dump it on 'it's Israel's fault' Oh, and they need to somehow convinced Hamas to not 'Kill all Jews' and at the same time avoid being perceived as 'Zionist puppets'..
More than that, Kurds found Saddam first, and Kurds captured one of bin Laden's top lieutenants, which led to us discovering where Osama was hiding.
The Kurds have been pretty steadfast friends of the US, and they're just about the only group in the region who isn't batshit insane, which makes it all the more maddening when we shit on them over and over again.
That's completely untrue.
If the Kurds finally get a state I do see them fighting to take part of Syria but I don't see them getting any part of Turkey. I support their independence but Kurds aren't saints. They Kurds of Turkey were very involved in the Armenian genocide and numerous atrocities against Armenians.
This puts Iran, Turkey in a bind, and on the offensive which was the whole point of endorsing this. It was the next step for Israel and US after the wind down proxy war in Syria. The game continues.
International cooperation in action! /s
Netanyahu claims they'll allow a Palestinian state as long as it recognizes Israel as a Jewish state.
Is this a way of making sure that no other Arab/Turkish/Iranian/Iraqi state endorses it? Because none of the actors capable of making it a reality want to be on the same page as Israel.
lol all your posts are anti-israel bullshit, "Hamas only targets soldiers" lol gtfo pls
Kurds deny selling 'directly or indirectly' to Israel
Being part of an ethnic group that once did bad things means you don't get to have a nation. /s
The problem is that there's already two Kurdish "states", one in Iraq and one in Syria and they're pretty different. Turkey for example bombs one side, while allying the other.
They are Jews, not 'Jews'.
Netanyahu is talking about Iraqi Kurds, not Syrian.
I doubt it. IIRC Syrian Kurds doesn't get along with Iraqi Kurds.
Also I doubt Russia would support dividing Syria.
This is what I was thinking of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Administration_for_the_State_of_Iraq_for_the_Transitional_Pe...
It was always my understanding any independence they had before this constitutional signing was just a farce, but I don't know enough to really confirm that belief.
Also a US puppet Kurd state will be a natural ally for them in any future war
??? Turkey and Iran are weak?
Depends on how much support comes from Syria and Iraq.
The Kurdish forces there have hundreds of thousands of battle hardened soldiers, many equipped with American gear.
Maybe they could sponsor those MEK (al-kalq) weirdos?
You mean terrorists? Yes, Israel already sponsors those terrorists:
Which is why Egypt is actually capable of getting along with Israel.
They are the same thing, only difference is that people don't want to see Garbanzo beaning.
This reflects a complete ignorance to history. although one may object to Israel's recent treatment of Palestinians, Israel has endorsed an independent Palestinian state for decades. Israel agreed to a Palestinian state via Oslo in 1993 and again in 2000 and 2008. Do your homework before you pollute the conversation with uninformed noise.
OOOOLLIE NORTH! OOOOLLIE NORTH!
all nations are formed like this though. it wasn't like the palestinians got the land bloodlessly.
Ethnicities that don't want to eradicate Jews, yes
The US sold Saddam regular stuff like helicopters and did provide intelligence against Iran. The wmd program supplies were mostly from France and Germany, and some from the UK.
European here. I learned about it from freaking American Dad.
So the war was in June 1967, but Israel gave up its Sinai Lebensraum in 1982 (minus the Gaza strip, which they kept for good luck).
The peace agreement was signed in 1979 and both sides agreed to a timetable for withdrawal, including the destruction of all Israeli settlements. Egypt didn't want Gaza back and instead wanted it included in a future Palestinian state.
The people that believe what you're quoting (America selling Saddam formulas) are the same kind of people that think Bill Clinton sold North Korea nukes.
Jews have a very strong genetic connection to the Middle East. The majority have lived outside the land for 2,000 years. Of course that their genetic is going to be 'watered down' but they do have a connection.
Palestinians are more 'Jewish' on a genetic level if you want to play tit for tat as they are not white Europeans.
So you define Jewishness by the color of the skin? Just no.
also the majority are of Jews in Israel are not European descend but Mizrahi descend aka Middle easterns.
The fuck do you mean Iraq would turn to Iran
I mean, that's pretty simplistic I thought... do I need to do an ELI5 on it?
Iraq's Shiite-led government will turn to Iran for protection if the Sunni Kurds claim independence and break away from Iraq. Baghdad has already openly stated this...
And beyond that Iran isn't too unfriendly to Israel
uhhhhhh... Iran has parades calling for the destruction of Israel, write "DEATH TO ISRAEL" on their missiles, and openly supports Hamas who calls for the genocide of Jews... If that's "isn't too unfriendly" to you, I'd absolutely hate to see what unfriendly is... actual genocide I guess?
The neighbors are all weak and unstable. I don't think Israel needs any reason to weaken its neighbors.
I was talking about Iran but the relations of Israel and Turkey have seen better days.
Oh they had an idea: Iran and Iraq were at war, and the US expected the gas to be used against the Iranians. Then the war ended, Saddam had lots of chemical weapons, and he didn't like the Kurds.
If you think Jews only came from Europe then I have a bridge to sell you
The Palestinians Themselves rejected it, 5 times Peace treaty was offered and 5 times rejected (see link for history lesson) Israel has offered 98% of the disputed land ('98 Olmert and 2000 Baraq), the Palestinian leaders don't want Palestinian state because it will be the end of free aid money to their private accounts.
I was unaware of this point.
It's not true.
It's absolutely neglectful and the US absolutely has a hand in the atrocities Saddam committed. But to just blatant say "The US caused it", is horrifically false, and just down right ignorant to history. For example, over 50% of the equipment and compounds that made up Iraq's chemical weapons program, came from Germany alone. Germany gave Iraq blueprints to build a nuclear centrifuge. France sold Iraq enriched uranium, and built a nuclear reactor in Iraq without informing or any insight from IAEA. UK built a chlorine gas and mustard gas plant in Iraq. UK was secretly providing nuclear weapons tech to Iraq.
US gave a lot of dual use things like advanced computers, but their biggest fault by far, was providing recon to Iraq on Iranian positions, which Iraq would then use its chemical weapons on.
But saying the US was the major reason for Iraq's WMD program, is just false, and ignores the history and the very reality of the topic at hand (not saying you, but others in this chain). US absolutely was a major reason, but it would probably rank around #3-4, behind Germany, France, and possibly UK, although UK's contributions "matter less" since Iraq never got a functional nuclear weapon, otherwise UK would be unquestionably #1.
Jerusalem is the place that is sending the message to Turkey, not TA. Unless the message has to do with beaches, bars, great food, and dancing?
It's not uncommon to refer to Israeli diplomacy as 'Tel Aviv', probably because that was the old capital and where all the embassies are. Maybe that's changed somewhat, but I'm old enough that it was common practice.