My friend hates when I bring up stuff like this. Things like CEO's aren't just biased towards males - there's also height, looks, race, contacts, charisma... there haven't been any female Presidents, just like there hasn't been any that stutter or are redheaded.
She's convinced that's it's men vs women and men have all the power and want to keep it when she fails to realize it's men and women vs the elite. They're mostly white, male, rich, from money, smart, charismatic. But this is changing. They shit on garbage workers whether or not they're female, male, black etc. Rich black people can shit on poor white people (Do you think Obama is intimidated by Juggalos?) just the same powerful men can shit on women.
It's not really a gender or race war most of them time, it's a poverty vs wealth war. (Also calling it a war is stupid and makes it sound stupid, when it contains very serious issues)
My experience in the corporate world has shown me that men far outweigh women in senior management/executive positions by about 3-4 to 1. I also have seen almost every single woman I have worked with take maternity leave at least once and often two or three times. Frequently accompanied by working part time for a while afterwards if not outright quitting for several years to raise a family.
Now... absolutely nothing wrong with that! But those management jobs? The selection processes are highly competitive. It's not just about being good at your job either... you need to have the right relationships with the right people. I don't just mean mates getting other mates jobs, I mean proper professional networking.
So a lot of women are taking themselves out of the game for years at a time, whilst their male competitors remain at work full time gaining more experience and better professional relationships.
End result? More men are qualified for senior management and executive positions. Not all - there are still women doing those jobs, just less of them. But if significantly less women are even competing for these jobs in the first place, why is it a surprise that fewer women end up in the roles?
So yeah... by all means have female executives and CEOs. So long as they're the best person for the job who wants to do it.
I'm a biomedical engineer at a hospital and we hire literally zero infants to create medical technology for patients. Ageists
and male homeless
That's why I, as a feminist, firmly believe that the true path to actual equality is to have a long, and often taken, paternity leave. Sure, this doesn't work out 100% as women still have to recover from childbirth and have boobs, but if more men took paternity leave, and if it there wasn't a stigma against it, I truly believe it would be a huge step forward.
Because paternity leave doesn't stop once the kid is no longer a baby. If the father starts taking care of the kids right from the get-go they'll likely be more active in their kids' lives long term as that inertia of "mom does all the kid stuff" isn't there. So this also means that it's not automatically mom who will pick up the kids if they get sick or automatically mom who had to leave work early to get Suzy to dance lessons.
Sure, this does mean that childless people are more likely to be CEO's, but frankly I'm ok with that. There's no double standard there unlike there currently is with men who have kids and women who have kids (when they both work).
I really believe that more men want to be more involved with raising their children but the disdain for paternity leave and the disdain for men who do things like leave work to pick up sick children is really the problem. It doesn't allow then to be as fully involved with their kids as I think most would like to be.
And male suicides
And male occupational fatalities and injuries.
There are other considerations, too. You wouldn't get a colourblind person to be an electrician (the common example), but there have also been studies saying that way more than the average number of sociopaths have top managerial roles. It's something about the suitability to the decisions that are made.
The fact is that people SHOULD be equal, but that doesn't mean that every person is equally suited to every job. If you are being turned down for something, and the reason is that you are a woman, that's bad. If the reason is that you are not qualified for the role, and you happen to be a woman, then that's how the recruitment process should work.
Yes, but if the infant were white, male and had a biomedical engineering degree I bet you would hire him on the spot.
Being an infant is a life choice. It's not like you are born an infant.
This post is just in time for my situation. Dating a girl, very nice, but super concerned about diversity etc. Go over to her house to eat dinner for first time. Her new roommates are like-minded and they circle-jerk over a vegetarian meal. One works at a little museum and laments that there are no handicapped people working there (total number of employees is ~10!). She concedes that her job description includes lifting 50 pound boxes but quickly forgets that fact.
and male criminal convictions.
(Do you think Obama is intimidated by Juggalos?)
I don't know where else I can use this but I am hanging on to it for sure.
And also the length of those convictions
"Prof." for gender-studies: Calling for more men as elementary teachers implies women do a bad job which is demeaning to women.
And the possibility of selective service/draft. As a man, my government owns my body until I'm too old/weak to fight.
It's not like you are born an infant.
Actually didn't see this coming and almost spilled my coffee.
there haven't been any female Presidents, just like there hasn't been any that stutter or are redheaded.
False. There have been four redheaded presidents.
If women get paid $.75 for every $1.00 a man makes then why wouldn't every single company in the world hire JUST women?
You save 25%!
Another thing that gets me is why people keep talking about getting more women into STEM fields. But no one ever asks if these women WANT to get into those fields. They blame society and how women were raised but my college tried to actively recruit women into our Software Engineering/ Computer Science field multiple times and not a single one joined.
Walk down to the nursing department and its 95% female. I dont hear any feminist crying about that. This is why I cant take them seriously.
Not enough women in STEM fields and everyone loses their minds, Nursing major is 95% women, no one bats an eye.
95% of all HR departments are female, they don't complain about that either.
Not sure what the article says, but going off of the title you provided:
How is this even real? This sounds like something from the Onion. Don't they see the other side of this? I'm all for women's equality, but I see so much hypocrisy in the Tumblr generation era of feminism and "social justice." I feel like articles like this and people who parrot this make a genuine effort for women's equality look bad. It discredits a good movement because young people want to seem "deep" and "tolerant."
Obama clearly has no plan for the Juggalo threat.
Sudden Clarity Clarence: Drinking coffee is just controlled spilling.
Men and women are equals. Men and women aren't equivalent.
Equality is the moral principle that people should be treated as individuals without regard to their sex. Inequality of outcome is not the same thing as inequality of opportunity unless the groups you are comparing are identical in all of their traits. Men and women as groups are not identical with respect to both their physical and psychological traits.
Assuming what you say is true (and I have no idea if it is), then the problem isn't that women aren't senior executives. The problem is that everyone thinks "being in charge" is the measure of success. If we instead focused on "living a good life", we'd see that the women are beating those executives by miles. (Seriously, being in top-level management takes like 16 hours a day forever, it's not all that fun.)
To be fair here, girls are raised differently than boys and are encouraged to do non-STEM type things from a very young age. This happens socially, in the education system, and usually at home also. Many girls (though by no means all) that are encouraged at a young age do go on to embrace higher education in STEM topics and STEM careers. If you're trying to recruit college women who haven't already been adequately exposed and interested, you're really just too late to the party.
As for nurses... somebody has to do it, it's not a glamorous or high paying job... when men start complaining that they can't get nursing jobs then it might be a problem.
source: am girl, was raised a girl, have STEM career
edit: more sources:
-- "While the majority of studies show no differences in STEM ability, a large divide in perceived competence starts as early as age five."
and a simple google search finds many, many more backing up my claims that little girls are (subtly, often subconsciously) pushed away from STEM type subjects and interests. Need more proof? Walk into a toy store. Say hi to "Math is hard!" barbie for me while you're taking an objective look at the differences in what's offered to each gender.
I'm deeply offended that the Audio/Video company I work for does not hire any blind people to calibrate displays.
Very well put. They are debating in Canada right now whether to introduce a bill requiring 1/3 of all managerial positions be filled by women.
Now I am not at all against women in the workforce, I encourage it, but mandating this sort of thing is sheer idiocy. Why doesn't the government just stay out of it and let the most qualified candidates be hired? The straight fact of it is, unfortunately, there are simply more qualified candidates who are male, probably because 30 or 40 years ago when they were in school, it just was not as acceptable for women to also be career-driven, educated, etc, thus the pool of managers now is still pre-dominantly male. As the years pass, and it becomes more and more common to have educated, career driven women in all positions across all industries, women will naturally be promoted into management positions once they gain the experience and skills needed.
Mandating that 1/3 managers be female is stupid, forcing a company to hire a woman when there are more qualified male candidates is bad, and would more than likely have a negative impact on the business. If, however, as you said, you are turned down for a position because you're female, but you are equally or more so qualified than the male who got the position, then that is bad.
Or you could just hire the best person for the job, regardless of their sex.
sociopaths may be the best for business, able to make decisions harmful to their workers or to society in general when the outcomes for the company are beneficial.
I worked for one company that offered 2 weeks paternity leave, I (and everyone else I knew having children) took it; however, that is not the norm by any stretch of the imagination.
At my current company, where I have seemingly limitless comptime and PTO due to the inability to actually take it, I took 2 weeks and it was considered borderline acceptable. One guy took three weeks (it was all of his PTO) and they were trying to get him to take less.
Thus it appears this isn't really a question of stigma by the men, it's a stigma enforced by corporate and American work culture and based on American's love of working more than 40 hours (a recent article shows ~49 hours a week for a salaried employee and growing), I don't think this is going to ever change regardless of how many people choose to take it.
My fiancée is actually a redheaded female who stutters...You have just crushed all of her hopes of becoming President.
I have a wheel chair bound friend. He flipped his shit when a major railroad didn't hire him to be a conductor. A conductor. The guy that climbs all over the train and has to walk the tracks and lift 80lb knuckles.
Jokes on them I have flat feet and bad vision.
Its similar to the urgent concern years ago that only 40% of university students were women. Now that that number is 60% it's cheers of empowerment. (But if it's 60% for women now, that means it's about 40% for men.)
Well there are a lot of things in gender studies that sound like something from the Onion.
The article is a rant about gender studies and collects some instances of mind boggling absurdities in the gender debate. As a work of journalism it may focus on minor points but the sentence I quoted is rather directly attributed to that professor. Oh, and by the way she was a real Prof at a solid German university until she retired this year (she is 66).
That's why I, as a feminist, firmly believe that the true path to actual equality is to have a long, and often taken, paternity leave
Except countries with that don't show men taking the same amount.
You might say "let's force them!" but then that just means you're forcing men to make the same decisions women do that are detrimental to their careers.
So basically it's suggesting that we should ignore that life is about tradeoffs, or treat women like children, not acknowledge they are making a decision like an adult based on their priorities and goals, and have others bear the consequences of their decisions.
Maybe we shouldn't tell adults how to live their lives, and maybe leave that up to partners in how to divide the workload. One sized fits all solutions don't work when people aren't the same size.
The worst thing about this is the fact that it leads to social attitudes and sometimes laws that force companies to hire for diversity instead of hiring for the best qualifications. My boyfriend goes to a major STEM school and he and other white dudes are constantly being rejected by companies, or have even had resumes handed right back to them at career fairs, because "We already have too many white males applying". I'm only referring to cases where the people I know have been actually directly told this, not just where they guessed that this was the reasoning. This happens all the time. And that's FUCKED. I don't want to ride in a fucking spaceship that was built by an evenly gendered team, I want to ride in a fucking spaceship that was built by the SMARTEST TEAM no matter WHO THEY WERE.
Also, something that occurred to me recently that's related to this issue is the fact that the performing arts industry has to go out of its way to find enough men for things. Plenty of little kids are pressured into studio lifestyles. So ... why don't we see an equal representation of men in the performing arts as women? Ballet companies and opera groups and choirs and dance troupes? Even though they're encouraged from a young age to participate with these things and the industries actively seek to recruit them, with quite significant incentive and overt desperation? MAYBE IT'S BECAUSE GENDER DIMORPHISM IS A THING.
Edited "not just guessed it" to "not just where they guessed that this was the reasoning" for clarity.
Considering many of those countries often have gender quotas, it's not likely you could connect the two without divorcing that fact.
Those countries did see a reduction in the labor participation rate of women when integrating paid maternity leave though, so if anything it could have the opposite effect.
It's not that all business owners are dishonest and unethical. It's just that they never rise to dominance in the larger, corporate models.
There are many honest and ethical small businessmen whom I've encountered over the years. Additionally, many companies are beginning to understand honesty and ethical conduct has a positive net benefit to the bottom line. I've found many companies who have won my eternal loyalty by treating me fairly. Not included in those ranks: Bank of America, Comcast, etc...
Of course this begs the question, are they doing it for the buck or because it is the right thing to do...
It is very true, and something I see all too often with the social justice crowd.
Everything has to be done now. They seem to think that forcing large changes in the way society works will not suffer from large amounts of back-lash and unintended consequences.
We just need to slow down, recognize there is some cultural inertia to overcome, and let things fall into place over time.
Why do you think they wore those wigs? For fashion?
Oh this is good, from now on every time someone calls for more females in a position, I'll just say that's demeaning to men and implies that they do a bad job.
I think every reasonable person in the world would agree with that statement. Unfortunately, humans don't always work that way. There are studies showing that many people (even subconsciously) favor men (http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/2012/09/23/study-shows-gender-bias-in-sc...).
Also, there's this great book The Heretics by Bill Storher (?) that talks about how a lot, if not most, of the decisions we make aren't at all logical, and why people believe, do, and say seemingly stupid or irrational things. It's mind boggling how bad we are at making decisions.
Maternity leave is also for healing. Women almost have to take the leave because their body just went through a lot. If it was natural, a lot of times they still have healing to do. If it was surgical, then they definitely have healing to do. Maybe not as long as the typical maternity leave, but it's actually needed.
With that said, paternity leave would be great. Unfortunately, in our society, people that take time off are looked down a lot.
Red hair, White wigs and Blue blood. 'Merica fuck yeah.
Can one really make it to the top if one is not willing to step on a few necks along the way?
Studies have shown that boy children are more likely to be punished for bad behavior whereas girl children are just told to go and think about what they've done. Maybe as a society we are quick to believe men are guilty and women are innocent?
I don't have a source for the study so maybe I'm full of shit. Or maybe jails are just super profitable and it's easier to continue catching and incarcerating poor black dudes.
Beetles are of 1/5 of animal species, but look at their representation in Congress!
All we see are beetles living in squalor!
It would also help if they chose to keep working after getting MBAs from elite schools.
Just to point out, this study literally only applies to academic science. It's good to note, but you can't just willy-nilly apply it to businesses without further study.
Actually the FBI has declared they are a gang. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/09/insane-clown-posse-juggalos-gang_n_5570088.html
Maybe the level-headed ones should speak louder
I disagree, I participated in those recruitment efforts and no girls bothered, maybe a few who we started talking to but you could tell they had no interest. And how can this be when most of the teachers in schools are female? Are you saying that we have to shove STEM fields in to women's faces to get them to notice these fields exist? No one exposed me to STEM fields, I actively searched out what I wanted to do, and I was originally planning on Pharmacy.
No man is complaining he cant get a nursing job. I did not say that at all. I said that when you compare the Male vs Female distribution in STEM and Nursing majors, no one cares there are more women in Nursing, but when there are more men in STEM they freak.
Exactly, humans are born equal in moral terms; but that's really as far as we can go without starting to qualify our statements on equality.
Once humans begin living we all become very unequal (both metaphysically and practically). We acquire different skills and philosophies; each of variable utility. Too many people think our commitment to equality means we are committed to ignoring the differences between people in principle. Not at all; all that is meant by "all men are created equal" is: we will not judge people for the conditions of their birth.
Once people start living in the world, we're all gonna judge the shit out of them.
A disproportionately large number when compared to population.
It is hard to tell from personal stories. I know of people who say they are constantly being left behind for people less qualified than them. While it is sometimes true, a lot of time the people who are getting ahead are more connected. Even though your mother is meeting with the CEO and CFO, it doesn't mean she has a strong relationship with them. I talk with my project manager roughly biweekly, and I doubt he actually knows my name.
Very true, but a lot end up leaving. I know 3 or 4 male nurses who ended up going back to college because they were expected to do all the heavy lifting and usually got labeled as pervs when they tried to help women. Their words.
never had a female mow my lawn, don't know any lawn care companies with a woman.
I have a speech disability and I don't get pissed if I can't get a job where speaking is a vital necessity. Why would I even want to? That'd be a terrible way to spend my day. Mostly I'm pissed that jobs around here where women are likely to be hired are those where speaking is a vital necessity (secretary, administrative assistant, waitress, customer service). I'd actually be the feminist lamenting the unlikelihood of getting the garbage collector job. I think I'd be pretty good at it!
Then why call it feminism? I think the paternity leave thing is a great point, I just don't see why it can't just be called equality or something.
Don't forget auto insurance rates! You don't even have to commit a crime to preemptively pay the price.
there haven't been any female Presidents, just like there hasn't been any that stutter or are redheaded.
fuck now i fell like Australia prime ministers are even worse. our last one was female with red hair and the current one stutters constantly.
I don't have the data for this (because it doesn't exist) but I think it's just going to take time. Time for more men to be more ok with being the stay-at-home dad. Time for more women to not assume they know more about child rearing than men. Time for companies to really not honestly begrudge their employees for taking maternity or paternity leave.
Life is about trade-offs, but when some trade-offs are not given their fair consideration because of societal factors, that's an issue. And something that I don't think in the areas where men can actually take paternity leave have been given enough time to actually change.
Have a link for that stat? I'd never heard that before.
I saw a story on the news about how female rights activists wants the local police department to lower their physical test standards because it's "biased" towards men because men passes the test more than women.
It's not that it's biased towards men, it's just that men passed because they meet the standards, not because they're men. The police should only hire the best regardless of race.
You would have to compare it to the population at the time. There were a lot of Irish back then.
I remember in high school, a girl had a beautiful voice and tried out for top choir. Only problem was she had some disability that caused her to always sing about 1 or a 1/2 beat behind. She didn't make the choir and she was devastated and her parents sued the school. Never heard of the outcome but jesus Christ.
Most men aren't encouraged to go into STEM professions at a young age (unless you mean late highschool).
Most boys are actually encouraged to do sports at a young age or nothing at all.
I wanted to be a garbage man when I was 4 and no one told me not to be. Don't remember what my sister wanted to be but I don't remember her being treated much different than me.
Honestly though there is a major barrier for women in the upper levels of big businesses. My mother has taken a total of 6 weeks of maternity leave in her 30 years in business and none of those were in the past 15 years. She is at an executive position at a major corporation where she has been at for 12 years. She has a direct line to the CEO and a weekly report meeting with the CFO. She has been in the same position for 8 years while other less qualified and less senior employees have filled the positions above her.
As of now she is looking for a new job where she may have a chance to move into a position like CFO because at her current job at a major corporation she doesn't have a chance. It sucks but it happens.
All these pro-family politicians would love to support a bill that would give every full-time worker four weeks of paid maternity/paternity leave, right?
I really believe that more men wasn't to be more involved with raising their children but the disdain for paternity leave and the disdain for men who do things like leave work to pick up sick children is really the problem. It doesn't allow then to be as fully involved with their kids as I think most would like to be.
Gee, it's almost like feminism can be good for men, too!
If you had done your research, you would see that it's actually boys who are being left behind by the school system here in the US, and by a pretty wide margin, too. Girls do better in every subject area, including math, and are much more likely to go on to higher education. The system supports girls much more and the learning environment caters to teaching methods that tend to work much better for girls than for boys. Girls are allowed to attend girl-only classes and schools, but boys are not. The notion that girls are held down by the school system is simply not supported by data anymore.
Exactly. Serving at a company for years, especially in a Senior Management role, isn't in someone's best interest. Your best bet is to job hop for promotion. You are far more likely to have larger increases in salary and title when you do so (10% vs a nearly limitless increase depending on your salary negotiation skill).
From what I have heard, it is easier for men to find nursing jobs because of the lack of them. Many people prefer male nurses than female ones. Due to the lack of male nurses, they are more desired for this reason.
I'm curious if countries with equal amounts of maternity/paternity leave have more female execs. Does anyone know?
Are you kidding? I hear about that constantly. Female founded startups is constantly talked about regarding Silicon Valley, and lately I've heard lots of stories about how few females start businesses after graduating with a business degree and suggestions on how to change that.
Let's be totally honest. In the business world, it's connections first and qualifications second to get your foot in the door. And then it's ass-kissing and qualifications. How much money is in your bank account, what bits you have between your legs, and what color you are don't fucking matter at all when it comes to a company deciding who to promote. It's all about who they like as a person and who is going to make them the most money. That's it.
This is why there are no honest / ethical business owners, they can't compete with business men that would cut their mama's throat for a nickel.
I don't know but goddamn do I respect garbage men and people who work in public labour. The amount of shit they take from the common citizen everyday would drive me to a murder spree.
Also, in my area anyway, they get laid pretty well for their service to the public.
Imagine if garbage just started piling up? Be kind to your garbage man.
Edit: I get it, laid instead of paid. But I'm leaving it, because I like to imagine they do.
You should check /sub/tumblrinaction for more stuff like this.
They depict the crazy side of feminism which also often is the academically side of it. We had feminists who pull the fire alarms to shut down different opinions (university, mind you) and a professor that thought it would be ok to physically assault christian protestors in the name of social justice. We have biology classes in one (can't remember the name) uni where pointing out differences between male and female biology are discouraged. One of the most famous feminists is also required literatur for many gender-studies classes: Andrea Dworkin. Here is something she said: "I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.". There also are feminists who think it is ok to rip off posters of the republican party on campus. The professor thought it was completely ok.
You have extreme christians but the moderate ones are at least calling them out on their bullshit. In feminism there is no institution that says: "Hey, stop it guys, this is too extreme." And there isn't even a lack of such organizations. They just don't scold those actions.
Operation Magnet : scare them off with magic
2 weeks is a joke.
You and me both brother! High five
The point is that CEO's are a high paying, high power position. In some companies, there is a male dominated culture that prevents women from rising to the top positions- it's called the glass ceiling. This isn't necessarily done deliberately, but many people have a subconscious bias in favor of men. There have been studies showing that a resume with a male name is more likely to get called back than a female one.
Look, you're going and that's that.
Walk down to the nursing department and its 95% female. I dont hear any feminist crying about that. This is why I cant take them seriously. Not enough women in STEM fields and everyone loses their minds, Nursing major is 95% women, no one bats an eye.
Maybe listen closer? Or look for people who are concerned about that? I have a background in elementary education and nursing (I switched careers), and it has been noted by many people in the field, both feminist and non-feminist, that employing more men would be a great asset in those areas. However, men face a similar stigma in entering nursing, elementary education, and other areas of "women's work" that women face entering male-dominated STEM fields. Even if they have interest in those fields they first have to overcome society's perception of them in those roles. The problem here is that we need to dismantle stereotypical gender roles in careers from the ground up. We should not impart notions that men must be gay or unmanly for wanting to work with children, and women must be equally unfeminine for aspiring for a career in science. Sadly, all of that crap we manage to dump in people's heads doesn't magically go away when they turn 18 and attend a college recruitment fair despite their interests in those fields.
It doesn't start in college, but much earlier. It's much better now, but even I remember when Barbie would say "math is hard... Let's go shopping." Other countries have far more women to men ratios in stem fields as well. It's not just a matter of plucking freshmen college kids to say "why not Stem?" It's going to change dramatically in the next 5-10 years when you've got girls who grew up on Sam Carter and Lisa Simpson hitting college and the labor force. But even now, there are still women in these fields who often have to face rampant sexism and problems once they get in. It's not just a matter of a lack of interest or skills by many women, but what they want to do and what they want to face.
So was George Washington...Oh god our country was started by gingers!!!
With all the scholarships and programs at my uni for women in engineering, I'm looking around my calc 4 class and I see one girl in a class of fifty.
At that point your not being repressed by society, most women just don't want to get into it. Don't know why, most the women in these classes get way better grades than I do.
Yeah having a working meeting with the CEO will get you no where. Going out for drinks or dinner will do a lot more to establish a strong relationship.
That could be applied to almost anyone, male or female. Maybe your mom just isn't the type of person they need to fill the positions above her.
Trying to paint it as anti-female without any other context is just ridiculous. We have no idea if these other people are actually "less qualified" or "less senior" since your mother is the source of the information.
woah woah now i know what i'll be sharing with friends for the rest of the week
People are born with innate differences too.
"All men are created equal" does not mean "all men are clones". We are each our own individuals but we deserve to be treated equally -- that is as individuals without regard to any group we might happen to belong to.
You're paying attention to the stupidest people. I'd stop doing that if I were you.