How the wall should be designed

How the wall should be designed

Sharks with frickin' laser beams on their heads

Edit: LASER - never seen so much drama over a misspelled word!

It'd also be cool to have barbed wire on the top in case someone was able to climb it.

Oooo heat seeking missiles too

Isn't this exactly how the wall was made in the comics?

And land mines

First, please note that the proportions of everything in the drawing are not going to be at all perfect.

I got tired of people calling out the "rampant ignorance" of people who still think that the current design of the walls in Alexendria is dumb. The explanation is that the design didn't take into account human attackers because the residents are naive, and since steel is stronger in tension than compression, putting the supports on the outside is better for protecting against walkers. There are problems with this, though: 1) In order for outer supports to be actually stronger in practice than inner supports, they would have to be VERY well anchored in the ground and to the wall. I don't know how much confidence I have that they are. 2) Steel is strong. VERY strong. Those I-beams are pretty hefty. This isn't anything like the meager chain-link fence from the prison. I think inner supports would be plenty strong enough to fend off any concievable walker crowd. Even if you had enough walkers to theoretically topple the wall, the amount of force being applied to the wall would also crush the walkers near the wall, rendering them unable to push, and turning them into an expanding barrier.

Now, as for the new design: perhaps the residents haven't built a moat/walkway either because they can't or it would take too much work (they have construction equipment, but perhaps it's broken). I still think this new design is good enough against walkers, and much better against humans.

There are lots of other improvments Alexandria could make, in terms of the layout of the wall, and more. I would suggest reading about castle design if you want to know more. One thing they definitely could improve is the gate, which is relatively weaker than the wall.

"Lasers"

Edit: I was making an Austin Powers reference, not chirping the guy's spelling. Y'all motherfuckers need Jesus.

Come on, throw me a frickin bone here.

"Alright search team! We need 4500 ft of corrugated steel. Pronto!"

Barbed or razor wire on this particular setup is actually not a great idea. Why??? because this is a defensive wall that is manned. Try to shoot through barbed wire while maintain a good perimeter/intersecting/overlapping fields of fire for defense is more trouble than it is worth.

I would agree that a low wall or ground level barbed wire on the outside of the moat would be a fantastic idea. OR even razor wire at the base of the main wall would be fine and make it harder to scale. Just don't put it in the way of the wall guards.

I would agree with the idea of barbed wire on the wall if the AOR was not manned from the wall. IF your job was to defend the wall from say a higher up sentry tower overlooking the wall, and those sentry towers were properly manned and had good IFF then, and only then, you would be able to place armaments like razor wire on top or even inside the wall to mess up whoever tried to get in.

EDIT: I have enjoyed our little class on base building. Many of the comments have great ideas. You all can be on my team when shit goes down.

And there was never ever a viable enemy from outside the walls ever again. TV show over as soon as Ricktatorship implemented next season. Seriously, good ideas for the fence, but perhaps a little too effective for drama TV.

This is the design that's actually in the comics. Good diagram of it.

You want two episodes of them hauling dirt and digging a moat?

I've never thought of a walker moat before... that sounds hilarious and absolutely terrifying.

Tank gets stuck in the moat and Governer gets sniped while he rages out and beats the driver to death.

Only one problem I see with the moat: if the wall's concrete anchors are in level ground, they should be pretty stable. But with a moat right in front of them, the ground will tend to want to give way and fall into the moat due to gravity. That could jeopardize the foundation of the wall.

You could fix this by making sure the moat isn't anywhere close to the base of the wall. Or by lining the moat with concrete or a stone/rock retaining wall. Or by putting the concrete anchors really deep, so that they extend well below the level of the bottom of the moat.

Also, as long as I'm on the subject of ways the earth might shift in order to return to its natural state of being flat, that berm will be exerting a lot of force on the wall. I'd worry that the wall would tilt over or that the angle between the wall and the brace would change in some way. I'd be a little tempted to add another cross member between the bottom of the wall and the bottom of the brace. That would complete the triangle and ensure the whole thing at least retains its shape.

In time. All in due time.

Which means at best it'll get a line of mention in the show. I appreciate that the comics liked to show the "how" about their survival whereas the show skips over these details. I came to realize this after how quickly they took over the prison.

Until Governor finds another tank

"Good thing there's an abandoned corrugated steel factory just down the road!"

An 80's montage should suffice.

This might not be allowed due to building code permits.

Factory owned by "Plot Incorporation"

"It is from their foes, not their friends, that cities learn the lesson of building high walls and ships of war."

ooh and the attack dogs with bees in their mouth, so when they bark they spit bees

Neither had I, but then after seeing that trap the Gov had I wondered why no one was doing that. They are not smart enough to give each other a boost out so there's really no way for them to cross at all. Bonus is that vehicles can't drive across either so your walls can't be rammed, and accordingly can actually be pretty weak and more of a scaffold for snipers to sit on. Just put a drawbridge in and you're almost impregnable.

But if IIRC they didn't start with it like that, only after Abraham took over construction.

The noise will be a morale issue from inside the town, and eventually there'll be enough walkers in there that they'll make it past it and start to crowd the wall again.

You can clear the moat from time to time. The walkers are just sitting ducks there.

They could make spears and poke them.

Worse than that, this wall design was after No Way Out when Rick had something just click in his head and suddenly came up with more ways to keep the place secure, if I remember right.

Structural steel is equally strong in tension and compression. Please stop perpetuating the misinformation that states otherwise. I see this quoted every week based on a single upvoted post from the first time we see the walls.

In structural terms, the diagonal members are not called "beams", that is a term for a horizontal member. The diagonal members are a form of "bracing" and are both under tension and compression anyway due to the forces on both vertical and horizontal axis. As the horizontal force of the walkers is directed below the connection to the diagonal bracing, the deflection of the wall actually pushes down on the external bracing, putting the members under compression in the vertical axis. (EDITED to make more sense)

As I've stated before, the bracing is mostly superfluous and would have better been used to form towers along the perimeter of the wall which would give slightly more support as well serve a useful purpose. Excavating deeper foundations to the main columns would have increased stability, and burying a portion of the wall would have helped prevent against digging under. Let's face it, walkers are unlikely to climb over the wall even if it was lower.

EDIT: Some more arguments. Firstly, without looking at any steel sizes at all I can confirm that the sections of wall are much more stable than any given wall of any given house we've seen so far. We've not seen walkers penetrate house walls. They are not an under stoppable force. Yes, they toppled a chain link fence. Fun fact: you and a group of friends could achieve this easily. Try this with a warehouse wall and it probably won't work.

Another point to consider: this wall was simply designed to be tall and relatively strong. Nobody was thinking of lateral loading from walkers. The forces needed to to toppled this wall would crush and kill the walkers at the front (as stated by the guy above) anyway, so it's a moot point. The diagonal bracing is more for wind loading if nothing else.

TLDR; the wall is fine. The only plot point to consider is that people can climb the bracing, and they can climb the inside too. But they can also dig under, or use ladders. But walkers will not topple it under its current form. Simple as.

In new Orleans I went on a city tour thing and the driver pointed out the broken glass on top of the walls around the houses for this. Much cheaper and eaiser to find.

No need to use bullets. I mean you can set them on fire. Or idk smash them with big stones. It's not like they can do anything about it. It might take a while. But it's not like it's impossible to do even without compromising themselves.

You remember right.

Put some dragon's teeth some distance outside the moat as well.  This will discourage the use of vehicle cover to get light infantry close to the wall.  Dragon's teeth can be made with a simple wooden mold and some concrete mix, and they will stop cars and slow down tanks and similar vehicles.

Make a few dozen wooden molds, and you can pour dozens of them at a time.  In a couple of weeks you might have one ring of them around the outer perimeter.  Then at you leisure you can add 2 or 3 more layers of dragon's teeth to that perimeter ring, staggered close together for good measure.  Paint them in camoflage patterns so they can't be seen for a distance, because of the Batman plan.  What's "the Batman plan," you ask?

Batman that shit:

Another long term project I'd do is try to disguise the roads into Alexandria.  That big approach road with a gate signals that there's something behind it.  Take the road going in, and walk out about 1/4 mile up the road from the Alexandria gate ... then cover a large part of the road with dirt and let grass grow onto it.  Then put up a phony curb (again some concrete and a mold) to make it look like a "dead end street."  Maybe get some "Dead End" signs and place them near there, too.  Demolish a couple of houses at the new "Dead End" with fire or whatever is available, and use whatever is available to disguise the fact that the road continues onward to Alexandria.  Make it look like there's nothing there.  Go all "Batcave" with the entrance.! (at 01:05)

If people can't even figure out how to drive up to it, then roving groups in vehicles probably won't find it.

Cameras:

Go to Costco or a nearby store that has home goods and electronics, get a few wifi routers, and a few cheap all-weather DIY home surveillance systems.  Hook them into alarms, and point them at the area between the wall and the moat/pit (so you don't pick up the movement of walkers in the moat/pit).  They all come with motion sensing and an alarm that is sent back to the control unit.  Set them to alarm when anyone reaches the wall.  Hook up a few more for general monitoring of the armory, the gate, the road into Alexandria, and other key locations.  If captain mullet can repair Alexandria's electric grid, then surely he and a couple of others can read a manual and install a few DIY consumer-grade routers and cameras.  Put that electric grid to work!

Put some dragon's teeth some distance outside the moat as well. This will discourage the use of vehicle cover to get light infantry close to the wall. can be made with a simple wooden mold and some concrete mix, and they will stop cars and slow down tanks and similar vehicles.

Make a few dozen wooden molds, and you can pour dozens of them at a time. In a couple of weeks you might have one ring of them around the outer perimeter. Then at you leisure you can add 2 or 3 more layers of dragon's teeth to that perimeter ring, staggered close together for good measure. Paint them in camoflage patterns so they can't be seen for a distance, because of the Batman plan. What's "the Batman plan," you ask?

Batman that shit:

Another long term project I'd do is try to disguise the roads into Alexandria. That big approach road with a gate signals that there's something behind it. Take the road going in, and walk out about 1/4 mile up the road from the Alexandria gate ... then cover a large part of the road with dirt and let grass grow onto it. Then put up a phony curb (again some concrete and a mold) to make it look like a "dead end street." Maybe get some "Dead End" signs and place them near there, too. Demolish a couple of houses at the new "Dead End" with fire or whatever is available, and use whatever is available to disguise the fact that the road continues onward to Alexandria. Make it look like there's nothing there. Go all "Batcave" with the entrance.! (at 01:05)

If people can't even figure out how to drive up to it, then roving groups in vehicles probably won't find it.

Cameras:

Go to Costco or a nearby store that has home goods and electronics, get a few wifi routers, and a few cheap all-weather DIY home surveillance systems. Hook them into alarms, and point them at the area between the wall and the moat/pit (so you don't pick up the movement of walkers in the moat/pit). They all come with motion sensing and an alarm that is sent back to the control unit. Set them to alarm when anyone reaches the wall. Hook up a few more for general monitoring of the armory, the gate, the road into Alexandria, and other key locations. If captain mullet can repair Alexandria's electric grid, then surely he and a couple of others can read a manual and install a few DIY consumer-grade routers and cameras. Put that electric grid to work!

The only downside to this is the labour effort (moving earth and rubble is a pain) but I'm sure it would pay off. Although if you had a working JCB to move all that dirt it would be a great design.

Other than that all I'd change is placing the additional steel for protection on the inside, it could almost rest against the wall instead of taking up resources to attach it that high up outside

We got a whole season with less action than that in season 2, I don't see why not!

They must make Plot Devices there!

That's just silly, bears with chainsaws for arms.

How are they gonna rebuilt civilization there without a fence?... They HAVE to have a fence.

They wouldn't need to show it happening. Abraham is the only one of Rick's crew with the construction group.

I really like the moat full of walkers to stop human invaders. The only issue I have is running a backhoe and dump truck before the wall is built, which would attract every walker within earshot.

Extra corrugated steel at the top will hardly do anything vs incoming gunfire. Corrugated Steel is galvanised mild steel, cold-rolled to produce a linear corrugated pattern. Mild steel has a Brinell Scale hardness of about 120. A brake rotor has a Brinell hardness of about 190-240. AR500 steel armor has a hardness rating of 500+ on the Brinell hardness scale. I have some AR500 steel targets that are 3/8" thick - they take some hits from pretty serious ammo (7.62x54R Steel core Russian Surplus ammo). In order for the corrugated steel to be able to be actual protection from gunfire, it would need to be at least 3/8" thick. Let's do the math: A 14ga corrugated steel sheet is 0.075" thick. 0.075 * 5 = .375 (3/8"). You would need 5 sheets of corrugated steel to make it to 3/8".

Then again this is TV so if it was aluminum foil it will stop incoming gunfire..

Honestly, something that make me really enjoy a dystpoian show is progress being made, one episode they're talking about a moat and the next they're putting the final days work into it isn't that, I far prefer shows that show gradual changes and developments, particularly when undertaking something like that would require the resources of the whole community, rather than just a few lines of dialogue about how much hard work went into things.

season 2 wasnt all bad. I really liked it, I dont know why everyone hates it so much. Its slow, but if you rewatch it, alot of things happen that develop the characters to where they are now. Well, in my opinion atleast.

Actually, this design is pretty close to the way the walls end up in the comic, and there's still viable threats from outside the camp because knocking down the wall isn't the only thing you have to fear in an enclosed space.

Well at the start Alexandria and the surrounding area was mostly evacuated, which is how IIRC they were able to put up the wall so fast and without hassle - there just wasnt any walkers within earshot, and it would take a while before they could migrate

The main point I was trying to make is that razor wire will only slow an enemy down. That is its purpose. It really isn't lethal. More of a deterrent than anything else. So you want it placed in such a way that it is not in your way of firing at multiple targets. Also you want it in the worst possible place for the enemy that gives you a good line of sight to shoot at them while maximizing your own safety/cover/concealment.

I completely agree that sentry towers can/do fail even with seasoned military personnel. Complacency kills is a mantra they taught us in the Marines over and over again. You sit up there, bored out of your mind, for hours on end day after day after day. People stop paying attention. People fall asleep after hours on watch.

Only actual downside to "walker-moat" would be morale issue from the incessant moaning.

Only when you're inside them

Ah, maybe a little sweet and sour pork surprise too if they get too close.

It's like throwing a shoe at somebody, honestly who throws a shoe?

Only east germans will understand.

As the horizontal force of the walkers is directed below the connection to the diagonal bracing, the deflection of the wall actually pushes back on the external bracing, putting the members under compression, not tension.

I'm not convinced of that at all.

If a walker pushes on the wall from the outside, and they are pushing below the connection to the brace, then in effect it is a class 3 lever. If you consider the ground to be the fulcrum, the walker is the force on the lever, and the load is the diagonal brace. Force will still be exerted on it in the same direction as the walker is pushing, but the force will be lower.

To put it a different way, the walker will push on the wall, and create torque about some point at or below ground level. If something does not oppose this torque, the wall rotate about this point (i.e. tip over). The diagonal braces resist this by exerting a pulling force on the top of the wall, offsetting the torque, and keeping any rotation from happening.

I want you in my camp when this shit goes down

But can the steel beams melt from jet fuel?

How about placing the wire like half a meter under the top of the wall on the outside.

It would be pretty hard to climb around it,but it wouldn't disturb anyone defending the wall.

it is all over Mexico. I've also seen it in the DR.

This is starting to sound like Dwarf Fortress

Yeah, I'd hate to burst OPs bubble, but this will probably happen next season. COMIC SPOILERS

And humans will at least be slowed down in attacking your base if they have to clear out a moat full of walkers to even get to the wall. So the only place they could attack from to avoid that is the front gate where the group goes out for runs. That's where they'd probably have the most defenses set up(guards, mounted guns, hot oil whatever lol).

because knocking down the wall isn't the only thing you have to fear in an enclosed space.

Zombies tend to attract more zombies too. All the moaning would eventually lead to hordes showing up. Even when you kill them, you have to clear all those bodies and expose people to the terrible bacteria or diseases rotting corpses carry. A moat is good for detracting humans, but it's not the best solution to handling zombies.

Yes, but the original engineer left, so I think they're ok.

"Welcome to the stealthy "observe potential residents in their natural habitat" club Daryl! Here's the loudest method of transportation we could find for you!"

Sorry but it irks me, now more than ever.

You don't want personnel land mines in this type of situation. For static border defense you should go with an outward facing directional unit like a claymore mine. You get far better AoE damage while maintaining several layers of redundant defensive countermeasures.

I've yet to see a problem in The Walking Dead universe that couldn't have been solved with more pointy sticks.

Well, he couldn't breach the actual fence either, but he could fuck it up enough so he can pass on foot (and we don't know what the main gate would be like, so there's that too).

You've accounted for everything except the jet fuel.

And then there's the "better be safe than sorry" mentality.

Just because there weren't Walkers around ASZ doesn't mean Deanna & townsfolk didn't hear/see the news about what's going on around them. It'd be the only logical thing to do, fortifying their town to protect themselves.

I mean you could have it anywhere on the wall, I find it hard to say that it isn't worth it because you never know who's out there and what they have. There's a chance the sentry tower will fall and at this current stage the people of Alexandria aren't really in much of a position to defend from an experienced group without our group being there.

Could create a kill area with a large overhead platform that is heavy and a steel grate floor. crush and repeat

Why did you run out on me?

Main gate is always gonna be your weak point. Trick is making it harder to get to (cars creating a maze down the entry road to confuse walkers, for example)

Aaaaaand it's full of walkers.

Yeah, and how many episodes of that ridiculous and dragged out "illness" storyline did we get? I came the closest to giving up on the show that I have so far. I just couldn't believe how long they dragged it out.

That's impractical, just get Catholic priests,hypnotise them to see zombies as minors and attach weapons to their... Err.... Little crucifixes...

Ahem, architect. Big difference.

--leanord nimoy

Heat seeking missiles wouldn't be that great in a zombie apocalypse unless it's meant specifically for other survivors. Zombies are straight cold, there's no heat to seek.

Gabe would just leave the fucking gate open anyway.

Lots of people do it to prevent birds from nesting...

Walkers can't melt steel beams.

i'm no architect but wouldn't the berm put a lot of pressure on the wall and make it easier to pull down?

God damned Mongolians always knocking down my city wall

First, if there is a moat it would seem very dumb to dig it by hand, so that means you likely used a piece of heavy equipment like an excavator.

Most people who have not worked on construction sites would not know that the excavator goes by many other names such as, the flesh renderer, skull crusher, limb cleaver, he that separates souls from bodies, and satans little helper.

Its long arm with a heavy, yet sharp toothed bucket can reach out where you have the option to squish your zombie enemy with the blunt side or cleave them in two with the sharp size. You can also clean out your moat with it too.

Yeah, until some self righteous dumbass leaves the gate unlocked

Land mines are too loud, if they detonated, they would just attract too many walkers

If TWD had WWZ walkers, there'd be no show. Sprinting parkour zombies don't leave a lot of room for survival..

This is a great design. The earth barrier is great for blocking explosive detonations, as well as stopping vehicles from smashing through. It's vulnerable to seige towers though, but who in this world would have the ability to build one that works? plus you need multiple towers as well as enough attackers to properly utilize them.

To touch on people's comments about the walls in the show I think the writers have made the walls intentionally vulnerable to human attacks for two important reasons; the people of this town are naiive, and they are setting up for an attack next season. We have had a taste of their ignorance of the world, as well as build up violence. This really looks to be the start of something big.

While Deanna did say something about how there was nobody around, it doesn't hold up to common sense. If there weren't enough walkers to justify building a fence, they wouldn't have built a fence.

Im sure there was a JCB at that building site? I'd have taken that myself.

It never seems to be a problem for Daryl and his loud motorbikes ;)

That's because architects are artists. An engineer would have been the one who actually designed the wall.

.308 comparison between mild steel and AR-500

You're giving the mild steel too much credit.

(warning: variable volume, poor editing, and far too many FTFs ಠ_ಠ)

Note that they're shooting non-AP .308 at 300 yards, and 3 of the rounds sail right through the 3/8" mild steel. The 3/4" plate does stop all the shots, but takes fairly serious damage in the process, so who knows how long it would hold up under repeated attacks.

As you said, though, this is TV, so they should just line the wall with couch cushions and/or restaurant tabletops, those stop everything up to 40mm grenades.

I thought if they parked buses behind the wall that would give support and a walkway too.

They definitely need an inner gate like a castle for containment.

The houses seem to be close enough to have walkways between them; the ground floors should be sealed. You have to have places to fall back to.

Burning them is by far the best solution I've seen yet. With a confined pit, you could toss in some firewood, a little starting fluid, and have yourself a nice little bonfire. Just have to be sure it burns to completion. All the other methods leave you with bodies piling up. Ashes are nice and compact.

Hm I guess, though I'd think the noise would be less scary than the sound of them banging on a wall. They could eventually fill it up with their bodies though, so yes you would have to empty it occasionally. Luckily it wouldn't be that hard, just drop a narrow ramp in and kill them as they file up (like a sheep dip ramp but way creepier)