Know how to make sure businesses don't invest any new capital in your country?
Do things like this.
Nothings illegal when you are the law.
If you think Maduro cares about business investing in Venezuela above keeping his power, you are going to be disappointed.
It's not even socialism and never really was. It's an oligarchy with absolute corruption. Chavez and his cronies ripped off the population with promises of equality.
All partisanship aside, my heart goes out to the people of Venezuela. This is a race to the bottom and there will be a lot of pain involved. Here's hoping when the smoke clears the people of Venezuela are able to remake their government in a manner which would prevent, in as much as possible, another Maduro.
Expropriation of a foreigner's property without compensation is a violation of international law. Venezuela terminated its BIT with the US in 2011, but if GM set the plant up before that, it could initiate a binding ISDS arbitration against Venezuela.
No, it's only real if the workers themselves own the means and goods of production.
The government owning and distributing those means has another name, usually communism. Or state capitalism.
But all of that only matters if you give a shit what words actually mean.
He's not a worker...
"These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger. Who's the banana republic now?"
The only thing that remains unclear is now that the "democratic socialist party" of Venezuela has seized production is if Bernie will go live out the rest of his days fulfilling the "American dream" in Venezuela.
and hold venezuela up for all its cash reserves?? maybe we can dock its paycheck
Maduro: Well fuck this place then. I'mma burn this shit down on my way out. Fuck you all.
He seized the means of production, don't you approve?
Why did seizing the plant make any sense? They can't just make their own cars there without coming up with new designs, and considering the bad ideas they've had lately I doubt they would drive...
actually more equal today
The seized the cars and equipment to sell, but who is going to buy? The people cannot even afford food.
Whatever happened to the Clorox factory they seized? I doubt they made any money off it either.
We must seize the means of production comrade
"But it wasn't real socialism."
Typically, countries pay awards because the consequences of not paying them can be bad. It's hard to raise money in international bond marlets with an outstanding award against you because underwriters and buyers know that the award can be enforced. Also certain categories of assets in NY Convention signatory countries (almost all countries) can be seized. They can't take embassies, but there is precedent for taking assets of pension funds for state employees held in custody in NY or even in some cases the assets of state-owned entities if you can prove they are "sovereign instrumentalities." Basically, countries almost always pay to avoid the Argentina situation.
He is not a bus driver.
But, in twenty years, people have mostly forgotten and anyone who raises the alarm is branded a fool by those who are profiting. So the same shit happens, over and over.
Seizing any given factory from under the control of a multinational corporation instantly cuts off the supply chain since Clorox isn't going to keep sending the ingredients to make Clorox down to the seized factory.
It could theoretically be done if the Government had the time, money, and expertise to re-establish everything that the larger corporation was providing, but in Venezuela they don't seem to be taking such measures and inevitably the factories they seize cease to function.
Of course even if you maintained the supply chain you'd have to deal with the twin problems of the economy is still going downhill so people don't have money to buy what the factory makes, and no outside corporation wants to create new factories or investments in a country that's been seizing those assets.
It IS possible for the State to run everything, but it's got to commit to the process of doing so and have the competency and capability of a large, multifaceted, multinational corporation if it's going to do that. If it's not good at its job then its not just a company that goes under, its the entire country.
That may be one of the best arguments against Communism - when companies fail in capitalism, it only affects certain limited areas of the economy and other companies are ready to take up the slack. When a communist State fails, it's been running everything so there's a potential for the whole economy to fail, and there isn't an established competitor to the State to step in and run things differently - leaving the only solutions to be serious reformation or revolution.
No western company has made any investments in vzla in decades. This GM plant was left over from when they had property rights, and GM was nursing it along.
Nobody, foreign or domestic, will make any investment of any kind, so after a while the place is falling apart. Venezuela is sitting on massive oil reserves but can't get it out of the ground anymore because their infrastructure has decayed from lack of maintenance and investment.
Funny thing, if you punish investment and work, people stop investing and working. And you end up where Venezeula is now.
Venezuela has done this multiple times to foreign companies. I don't know why any company would think building in Venezuela is a good idea. Even if you made money at first, the government seizing your assets is always going to be on the table.
Basically, they refused to pay a bunch of awards from arbitrations relating to actions taken in the early 2000s crisis. They were more or less locked out of raising money on international markets and had the embarrassing situation of having a bunch of non-military/diplomatic assets seized by award holders. As I recall the investors even got their hands on a decommissioned old military ship, but that might have been related to a US judgement rather than an ISDS award.
Socialists seizing factories? Well I never...
/sub/latestagecapitalism must be celebrating right now. This is their dream scenario.
actually more equal today
Yes everyone is dirt poor
People down voting you can't get a grip that autocrats dress up their governments and parties in all sorts of flowery terms.
Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea (Not democratic, a republic or for the people)
National Socialist Workers Party (certainly not socialist, they despised socialists)
What is happening in Venezuela is a straight up autocratic kleptocracy, there is nothing by the people for the people about it. The retort of LOL look at real socialism fail guyz is just straight up intellectual laziness.
'It's a necessary first step to ridding the country of evil capitalists. It has to get worse before it gets better.' is how they would defend it.
No, because capitalism lacks the "promise equality" step.
Stabilizing the economy would go a long way to preserving his power. He seems to think this action stabilizes the economy. Socialism, not even once.
Mass starvation and civil unrest seems like an odd thing to celebrate, but I guess if that's what they're in to.
Hey guys, I got an idea to quell the protestors, let's blame it on some capitalistic for-profit company again. We did beer, we did bleach, this time lets...go after a car manufacturer!
Ya! THE REASON WE'RE HAVING PROBLEMS IS BECAUSE OF GM! NOT OUR P00PY SOCIALISM & LEADERSHIP!
Exhibit A: A working government structure with checks and balances.
This is why corporations are given the power to sue countries in trade agreements.
It's funny how socialist revolutions always end up state-capitalist. Human greed always takes over.
So there is never true socialism since as soon as you seize the means of production you're now on top...
He was a bus driver.
Made possible by the people giving their government waaaay too much power in exchange for promises of security. Now Venezuelans have neither freedom nor security.
Seizing the means of production? Th-that's not real Socialism! It'll work next time, we swear! Let us try it in your country and it'll be great!
First person on reddit that understands the difference between these two. I am proud of you.
Truman tried this during the Steel Workers Strike in the 1950s. To ensure materials could still be made for the Korean War effect, Truman nationalized the steel industry. Of course, the Supreme Court in Youngstown Sheet said the President can't do that.
Within minutes of the Court's ruling, Truman ordered Commerce Secretary Charles Sawyer to return the steel mills to their owners. Sawyer did so immediately. The Steelworkers went out on strike again shortly thereafter. The strike lasted for more than fifty days until the President threatened to use the somewhat cumbersome procedures under the Selective Service Act to seize the mills.
You're right, Maduro is totally in charge of the DEMOCRATIC socialist party. He's for sure not a dictator.
I always thought the bank bailouts were interesting. When you are insolvent, good luck trying to get a loan from a bank. Never gonna happen. When banks are insolvent, we the people are forced to bail them out with our future tax dollars....and banks literally create money out of thin air. Seems legit.
Try explaining this simple reality to socialist or communist sympathizers on Reddit.
Bernie Sanders said the American dream is more apt to be realized in Venezuela, so much so that they seized an American car factory.
Mass starvation and civil unrest seems like an odd thing to celebrate
It's an even more odd thing to create, and yet the Socialists create it in every country they control.
It's cheaper and more cost effective to have a factory in the nation or region that you are selling it in. And you actually sell more cars when it was produced there. You don't think that foreign car companies built car plants in the US out of the goodness of their heart, do you?
It's a really flawed system... but there aren't a lot of good solutions.
In my opinion, the best solution is to jail those at the top of the banks for a long time, and not in one of those white collar prisons. At least make the punishment bad enough that people would rather just be "super rich" instead of "ridiculously rich".
So it's only "real" Socialism if the workers "seize" the plant themselves? What on earth would that even look like? What is the functional difference between workers doing it and having the government do it for them?
Well, Abdul Haq was part of the Ahmad Shah Massoud group and was pretty cool actually; Both were murdered by the Taliban immediately before 9/11.
For years they desperately wanted aid in the fight against the Taliban, but we didn't provide it because our allies Saudis Arabia, UAE, and Pakistan told us not to.
1000 years from now, sifting through the ashes of a once great civilization: "Any day now. Any day."
That's not even true. Hugo's family have stolen billions of dollars from the Venezuelan people.
College campuses are a hell of a drug.
I think the idea is to have collective ownership of the means, ie the workers at the factory own a stake in the company and the profits.
This is a corrupt government stealing equipment under the guise of giving it to "the people" ie, one or more rich buddies of Maduro who are willing to pay him enough for the stolen goods to keep his dictatorship alive a few more weeks.
If you want to feel smart go to /sub/socialism.
Here's a fun tidbit! Venezuela spends a lot of money advertising its business and investment opportunities abroad. Not in the 'States, but in the rest of South America.
I just came back in February from living in Chile, and down there, you regularly see TV ads touting Venezuela as a place for investment and business growth. Pictures of men and women in lab coats, men nodding in business suits, and the pitch of why you should do business in Venezuela.
It's as though the government of Venezuela (1) thinks Chilean investors must not read the news, (2) has extra money to throw around on fluffy TV ads in other countries. Meanwhile in the real world, you regularly meet people in Chile who left Venezuela for economic reasons. Many of them are sending money home to family who couldn't make it out.
As a current business owner in America formerly from Ireland, I found it much easier to enter the market here than in more socialistic European countries. Benefits are a different animal though...
Try saying that on /sub/communism. Oh wait its against the rules...
What is the Argentina situation? Sorry I don't know much about south american politics :/
They could have just had the factory in America. Oops.
Cuba is on the brink of greatness. Just wait.
Its really much, much, much, much easier to create equality in misery, than to create equality in success.
Tearing shit down is always faster than trying to raise everybody up.
Worked for Iceland. I'm down.
"Rise up fellow socialists! Seize the means of production!"
Seizes means of production
LSC: They aren't real socialists.
Was killed by the Taliban because he was fighting for more freedom.
They still do. Crazy what happens when you run out of spending other peoples money.
So just like Capitalism?
And to think /sub/politics wanted this type of government.
King of the ashes
Question, maybe I misunderstand this, but why is there such a battle between socialism and capitalism? It seems to me that nothing about capitalism prevents people from creating socialist companies where the workers have more ownership in the company, and in fact there are many companies that offer stock opportunities/payment
Socialism is the state controlling the means of production. Bernie Sanders is cheering from his lake house.
Except for the party bosses.
Know how to make sure businesses don't invest any new capital in your country?
Internal business activity at all levels is killed by these policies also.
Why would someone start a little shoe repair business if there is no guarantee it won't be taken away?
The right to own private property is the pinnacle of the capitalistic economic system, and the primary incentive for the citizens to be productive.
Well, sort of. If you look into them they were stolen designs with worse parts. Except they did invent aluminium brakes, which while innovative was a colossal failure.
You realize he's praising freedom fighters for resisting the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan? That's nowhere near the ball park of claiming the American dream is in Venezuela.
I'm sure I'll get a cute ad hominem in response like you responded to that other chap.
Exactly. People keep trying to say that socialism is what caused Venezuela to fall. No. It's the lack of diversity in its economy (economy based on oil) and more importantly the authoritarian leader trying to seize control of the country.
If I were to apply people's same logic on Venezuela to North Korea I could argue that North Korea is an example of why democracy is a failure. But we all know that would be a dumb argument. But for some reason when you flip it to socialism and Venezuela that poor logic is sound reasoning to them...
Edit: Because some of you want to debate the definition of socialism, even if we are to use your narrower, more extreme or traditional definition, Venezuela isn't even on the list bitches.
Socialism, not even once.
Everything is socialized. Financial losses, investments in high risk high reward technology, extraction of resources, pollution. Everything except profits, profits are privatized.
The problem is: "capitalism" in the US is on a pretty similar path. Because of the difficulty to enter the market in the US, we're currently heading toward a monopolistic structure, where if a company fails, we're fucked. Adding to that, when banks fail in the US we have been forced to bail them out. It sets a bad precedent, and because we don't regulate them to prevent risk, we're going to keep repeating the failure.
I just clicked that - what in all the hells man...
It's a Stalinist sub now.
As soon as he took office, he became a "power and influence broker".
Foundation, not pinnacle
Argentinean here, i hope this helps.
And about the "military ship"
That was in 2014, when the president was as nationalist, leftist and populist as you can find. The new president is center-right.
Then why was it toted as a perfect and eorking socialist paradise before this?
Socialists seizing factories?
you misspelled "Communists".
Here is the updated executive order that allows (among other things) industrial production to be taken over by the government. While this link is to President Obama's signature, it's been around for decades (1950), just slightly modified from admin to admin. Technically, they can draft you and put you to work on a farm...
Socialists in the chat be like
"OmgZ its not socialism because it doesn't match what socialism means in a textbook. Socialism has nevr rly been tested cuz its neva matched the meaning and it collapsed so we have to try again to see if real socialism will work elsewhere"
Face it peeps, it may not match the definition of socialism, but any time a government is founded in the name of socialism, it eventually falls flat on its stupid face
First link: "why the situation in Venezuela is not the fault of the government"
Second: "100% renewables would reduce the price of electricity to zero, deterring new investments not completely subsidized."
WHAT THE FUCK IS "MAINTENANCE"? DOESN'T EXTREMELY COMPLEX INFRASTRUCTURE WORK BY ITSELF WITH MAGIC AND WISHES??
Holy shit that second link triggered me hard.
No, that's not why corporations are given the power to sue countries in trade agreements.
Probably because of the above quote where he says things are better in radical commie regimes?
That's one of the great parts of socialist/communist regimes...they are in control. Everything is their fault.
Here's hoping when the smoke clears the people of Venezuela are able to remake their government in a manner which would prevent, in as much as possible, another Maduro.
They won't. People have short memories and at the end of the day what most people really truly seem to want is a dictator that shares their beliefs.
I mean, it isn't. It's just people using the promise of socialism to get power and authority, and is the exact reason why it hasn't worked so far and probably won't for a long time.
Because socialists and communists seizing the means of production and sticking it to a big corp like GM. It's the kind of thing Maduro's base (and /sub/latestagecapitalism) get excited about. It's good publicity for him.
The people who worked at that plant are screwed. But most of the country can't afford to buy cars anyway so they don't care.
you can go way down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole, but yes. There are separate executive orders for industrial production, farming, energy, pretty much everything.
Here is the really fun part. In order to execute these EO's, the president has to declare a national state of emergency.
A significant portion of the war on terror, patriot act and what not depend on that state of emergency being declared. Bush signed it right after 9/11, has been renewed every year since. While not realistic, one could make the argument that the sitting president could legally do exactly what Venezuela's doing.
I am the Senate
much easier to create equality in misery, than to create equality in success.
It's not really possible to create equality in success, just because some people are much more capable than others. So when someone is trying to create equality of outcome, it's always equality of the minimal possible level.
Probably because of the whole long-history-of-praising-brutal-communist-regimes thing.
No, it's the reason it will never work unless you eradicate human greed and selfishness. You know why capitalism works? Because instead of trying to deny basic truths about human nature, it harnesses them instead.
Freedom movements arise and assert themselves. They’re doing so on almost every continent populated by man-in the hills of Afghanistan, in Angola, in Kampuchea, in Central America. In making mention of freedom fighters, all of us are privileged to have in our midst tonight one of the brave commanders who lead the Afghan freedom fighters—Abdul Haq. Abdul Haq, we are with you.
-- Ronal Reagan
Wonder why he didn't go live out his last days in Afghanistan.
The government has been trying to blame the situation on anyone but itself and its policies, so the line for the last few years has been that independent companies have been ruining the country, and part of the government's 'solution' has been to try to seize and nationalize these companies, which is only making the problem worse.
"But it's not reeeal Socialism!"
Tell that to the Trade Federation.
The one in the whitest state in America. Vermont.
They're above the law too.