DE, Grinding needed in Focus 2.0 and PoE is daunting, and honestly off-putting.
I really like the feel of Cetus, and Plains. I love how the ships blow up in a nuclear fashion, and how Grineer bases are set up in different corners of the world. I'm not used to seeing wildlife, or huge Sentient-Eidolons walking around in their threatening form, but they are great. Genuinely.
And that is exactly why what I'm about to say makes me even sadder. The amount of grinding required in Focus 2.0 and PoE is rather insane. Focus 2.0, in particular - thanks to the changes, Zenurik and Naramon aren't what they were. Zenurik is alright if you still want to use abilities more willy-nilly, and Naramon is good for affinity farming (and that decay looks functional. Brilliant little idea there). That said, these two don't really help you against the fight against the Eidolon. That's right, you needed Madurai all along, to make an effective use of your newly acquired Operator weapon, Amp. Eidolon fighting is rather annoying, too, but that's a subject for another post entirely.
But more important issue, I feel, is at the core of PoE. You're fishing, and mining, and running bounty missions - all of which give meager reputation points. We do not have Cetus Sigil of some kind to passively gain standing. What you see, is what you get, and what we're seeing is honestly too little. Newbies will be horrified at the amount of farming needed, and vets will soldier on, adding onto their crippling depression.
Sure, fishing, mining, and running missions - they're all good fun. Except we're given multiple goals to work towards. Oh, here's this cool looking fishing spear that apparently pierces just about everything. Wait, it needs 20,000 reputation points? And... I got a thousand or so from running the sortie 1/2 level series of missions... which is time-gated... Oh wait, there's mining cutter I need, too, and weapon crafting, and bunch of cool cosmetics - that are going to take months to acquire.
Whether this was intentional or unintentional, this is severely off-putting. Such artificial inflation of grinding required - at this obvious level - is honestly depressing. Quills reputation is yet another annoyance to farm towards, it seems. It'd be great to have sigils for both of them.
Just to put things in perspective, the reputation you would get from turning in fish and gems, in general do not even come close to Syndicate Medallions. Case in point, take a look at This, is what you would get in return for reputation. I have one for gems, too, just to add timber to the flames. Needless to say, mining and fishing, unless there's more refinement and procuring you can do to raise their value at higher reputation rank or something - do not seem all that worth it, and are not solid alternatives to bounty missions.
The archwing that we were so excited about, that's behind 3 day construction (or 175 plat)? Well, it has a resource sink as well. Just let that sink in (No pun inten... Who am I kidding).
All in all, this is all just first impression stuff. Everything is subject to change still - DE has all the necessity manpower and willpower to do so. But after first few hours of PoE, sudden realization of how many actual hours would I end up spending for this and that hit me, and I felt as if a discussion was warranted.
Edit: I've been watching Brozime's stream from time to time. Well, it seems like Twitch items are not being distributed correctly. PR move... just might backfire. He was angrily saying (rightfully so) "It's not on my end, it's DE's end, I can't do anything to fix it". (Not an exact quote) and I honestly feel bad for him and many others that feel responsible for this fiasco. Because people invested time watching the stream, at a promise of in-game rewards. Some of these people, I guarantee you, opted out of playing PoE (or have initiated the download and began watching the stream at cost of download speed) just to watch these streamers. I feel sorry for DE as well. This PR move should have been smooth transition that would've provided them much needed exposure. Now they need to deal with distribution of rewards and tracking of everything. Christ.
I think the real kicker for the Archwing resource sink is that it's got limited uses. Why? It would take hours just to make charges?? Then I gotta do it all over again???
Yeah, the amount of work required to reach any of the interesting stuff from PoE is a little overwhelming. I have no idea what order I should be doing anything, and it seems like you need to do absolutely everything in ridiculous amounts. I know they don't want us blowing through all the content super fast, but at this rate, it feels like everyone's going to get sick of the Plains before we even reach any of the stuff that's been hyped up.
There's also the fact that Gara, the warframe whose blueprint is given by a quest that's been put right after Vor's Prize in the codex, a warframe whose parts are given from level 15-20 missions, on Earth, requires two thousand fucking Kuva to craft. The discrepancy is madness. How long is this warframe going to sit in people's inventory before they can even start to farm the ressources for it?
I'm already sick of it. And, well, it's partly because I have suffered three different type of missions failing on me. I've ranted about it on /wfg/, . It's been pretty bad night. 3 hours of wasted grind, an hour of talking with other Warframe players only to realize the inhumane, utterly hopeless level of grind that is PoE.
so, you're forced to fish
The good :
the feel of gameplay of PoE is awesome. It's beautiful, rather optimized, you're free, ennemies are somewhat challening without being too much of pains in the ass, it's a good open world area.
the focus changes seem good, Zenurik remains powerful, other schools have their uses, sure the numbers to unlock the cross-tree talents seem daunting but we'll get there. As a bonus operators are now a lot less clunky to use.
6k Kuva in sorties is sweet. Yes, it is.
The bad :
the escort drone mission is annoying af, I failed a lvl 5 10 one because this stupid gladOS wannabe refused to move and was about as solid as a real life potato.
For the love of god please put the PoE mission caches on the minimap. Some of us play without sound, or with music, or are hearing impaired, or have their senses overwhelmed by the dozen of grineers hunting us while we search for those. Failing the fourth or fifth step of the hardest bounty solo because you can't find the last cache is not fun, better said IT SUCKS ASS.
The Ugly :
Archwing consumable, REALLY ?
The grinding requirements of PoE are idiotic. Ostron reputation is slow, the only way to raise it is to farm bounties that are going to get boring really quick. But it's nothing compared to ...
The Quills reputation. Do they have missions or bounties ? or maybe a sigil ? Guess what ...
Last but not least, Gara parts are lost in the middle of 9 other rewards, they have maybe a 10% drop rate, and one bounty, even super easy, take 10 15 min to complete. You're looking at days (as in 24 hours) of bounties to get the frame unless you're Gladstone Gander. Sure you get other stuff in the process, but it's probably as of now the hardest frame to grind.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'm finding myself agreeing with the points you've laid out (and well written too!). As much as there is fun in grinding out stuff (and being perfectly aware of the type of game that Warframe is), the stuff in PoE seems to be taking it to a whole new level. There is grinding, and then there is "how many hours per day am I expected to play this game to reasonably enjoy any new Focus features?". When looking at the numbers required, and when the first impression is that I'll need to treat playing Warframe as a job in order to see any progress in a month... well, that's taking grinding too far I think.
Another misstep that you've pointed out is tying Skywing to charges... I can't fathom the thought process behind locking a key mobility feature behind consumables. Now every time we think about deploying our Archwings, we'll always be weighing up whether we really need to use it and consume a precious charge. I feel it's like if every bullet jump costs a charge of something consumable, or that ammo fired from our weapons has to be built at the foundry. Something that's core to enjoying the Warframe PoE experience shouldn't be gated by consumables, it just takes the fun away from being able to use it as and when you feel like it.
The way they've handled trying to leverage Twitch's popularity in promoting PoE seems to be not very well thought out either. Outside of technical issues stopping rewards from being handed out, even the very idea of tying exclusive items to one-time-only achievements (looking at you By Dawn's Early Light) isn't exactly going to increase viewer attachment to Warframe streamers - once a streamer has unlocked an achievement, there's no reason to watch them again as they won't be able to get that achievement any more. A more sustainable approach to cover PoE's launch period would be to offer rewards for something that keeps viewers going back over the course of the next 2 weeks. Daily drops for the random booster/Prime boxes would be better than tying the boxes to achievements. That way for the next 2 weeks, while the promotion lasts, it'll always be worth it for players looking for a little bit of extra free goodies to keep tuning in to Warframe streamers on Twitch, creating a longer lasting effect instead of a huge day 1 spike, followed by streamers being hung out to dry as they have no more achievements left to reward their followers with.
Lastly, as one of many people affected by the game-breaking bug with Transference and The War Within quest, it really seems that DE's release time for PoE was far from ideal. Deciding to release the update so late in the day for them (around 11pm-ish) meant that they left themselves with no time to address any issues. Only 1 hotfix was released (at around midnight their time), and the critical mass of bug reports for bugs that literally lock players out from playing any part of Warframe (not just PoE) will remain unaddressed for over 6 hours as DE staff head home for bed.
To be perfectly clear, I sincerely applaud DE for not keeping their staff back to deal with issues at 2am, but a better decision they could've made, knowing that PoE clearly wasn't ready for release once the sun set on Thursday, was to get the release candidate as stable as possible internally, and then release it first thing in the morning on Friday. That way they now have staff on hand the minute game breaking bugs roll in, and even if it does take time to implement the fix, test it, then release a patch, they can at least update the community on their progress. Right now we are 7 hours into the game lockout bug and not a single word of acknowledgement from DE, due to them being asleep.
I have no idea where to get the oils from.
I can solo plains as it is but it’s tiring running from one end of the map to the other with my mesa. I got tired seriously. i took a break from PoE coz it got too demanding after 2 crashes that made me lose the sentient drops infuriate me further.
Gotta rest now. Take care fam
You're correct, Fish oil does in fact come from filleting fish at the vendor.
we Dishonored now
So I'm forced to fish. Fun.
and a better reason to quit
yeah making us pay (in-game) resources for a core gameplay mechanic (mobility) is pretty terrible. it's like having charges for bullet jumps. can you imagine that.
You this update has some many things wrong with it. It's way to buggy (specters of the rail levels of buggy) and also way to grindy, I don't mind farming for a week or two for an awesome item but this seems like a job that is meant to take months and the bugs aren't helping, for example about an hour ago I just got finished killing an Eidolon the host ragequit dc'd out because he ran out of revives and so I crashed when he caused a host migration and I lost all my rewards.
the archwing is insane even for people who play daily. thats saying something.
Why do archwing charges require fish oil?
that's a good point. it should be changed to a resource you can get on the plains.
there's probably going to be a lot of newer players who will farm the parts only to realize later that they're fucked and won't be able to build her for another 60 or so hours.
You don't have to get everything within a few hours of the update.
Nobody said they wanted to. Nobody even implied it. Saying something is too grindy doesn't mean you want it immediately. Why do people do this every single time somebody makes a post like this?
The major thing I think is the abysmal standing gain compared to costs I played for 14 hours straight and wasn’t even able to hit my Ostron standing cap for the day.
Focus gain seems fine it’s not like we’re actually going to use all the nodes anyway and plenty are still and will remain terrible in all likelihood.
120 minerals, that spawn randomly, for 2 parts of one melee weapon...What for? For custom name? And 100+ kills of Teralyst minions, to create basic AMP weapon...
You mean you don't like doing 20-40 minutes of work finishing (hoping to finish) 4-5 objects in a row, only to be rewarded with 50 endo or 5k credits? The bronze tier rewards are a slap in the face, and honestly a fuckin joke.
Or Zaws. They require scales and bones.
That is quite ridiculous, pisses me off too that the Archwing itself can't be used for at least 3-5 days I'm guessing since they put it in clan research.
I thought it would be an unlimited use type of thing after I got it. Bad enough I'm stuck walking the Plains until then, better get fishing now I guess for that oil.
I already had a ton of backlog so I'm not really feeling the grind anymore than I was but it does seem that it'll be a while before I can do much with the new syndicates which is a little unfortunate. Won't be getting Gara anytime soon on those drop tables either. That said the focus speed seems alright to me considering how lategame it's meant to be and how challenging hunting down ancient space giants should be and I'm enjoying the new take on the operator.
Are the oils not from the fishing vendor?
You can bring her fish you catch, and she can either convert them into rep or extract resources from them, and I was assuming that all the fish-related materials came from the latter.
First impressions shouldn't be made? No, discussion is never harmful, as long as it is constructive, not destructive. Thanks to help of others, I have seen what's out there. I've seen the shamelessly low rewards myself. I've been softlocked out of bounty mission continuation half a dozen times due to bugs. All this... To say that there is value in patience, I can agree, but to say that I should withhold my opinion, just to think on it - despite sheer number of evidences... You're asking people to stay ignorant.
Bugs are expected and will (probably) get fixed though. The reward amounts are underwhelming for sure.
I ran solo and yet i crashed until reaching the gate. wtf is that? Finished a bunch of dauntingly same missions over and over again and crashed and lost all the stuff i farmed for at night. My morale was at an all time low after that. Need a break. Badly.
That's not the problem. The problem is for new players, for which it's likely to be the very first warframe blueprint they'll get their hands on, and definitely the frame whose parts are available the soonest. And yet you'll need to go through just about all the star chart before you can finish it. Or get a taxi, but I don't think a player with a couple hours in the game and barely maxed-out tutorial gear is going to have much fun cowering in a corner of a kuva mission trying not to get one-shot by a stray grakata bullet.
Like the first days of Skyrim.
Look at this big dumb giant..I'm gonna hit it.
They increased the focus gain by 33%, and increased the focus requirements by about 2000% (each tree has 2 abilities that require ~2 million focus to cap, and some trees have abilities that cost about half that).
And you can't actually gain it playing normally - you have to go on cheese farming missions with frames dedicated specifically to farming.
DE needs to put in a better mechanism of gaining focus other than "pick 1 of these 3 farming methods and enjoy giving up 1-2 hours of your life every day".
I just can't do this anymore the grind hurts soo much and it doesn't feel rewarding at all
That's actually not that hard. When you leave Cetus head west until you get to the ocean. Fish on the coast and they have a pretty fast spawn rate and seem to turn in for a lot of standing. I fished up almost 8k standing in about 20 minutes of Ocean fishing.
The rest of the game is still there. Were you playing before PoE?
Welp at least the learning curve will be quick. Nothing teaches you not to tangle with Eidolons like being squished by Eidolons.
In all honesty, I'm not against the idea of grinding. But what they've done with PoE, they've outdone themselves. This is worse than when Kuva and Rivens were introduced - Rivens were targeted for casual experimentation and hardcore minmaxers. It was something that people could ignore, if they wanted.
PoE, has been targeted just for everyone - and the amount of rewards they're willing to give back to us, historically, are the worst return on time spent. If you want to hunt down Eidolons, you need good Focus skills, which run easily upto millions of Focus points.
And Cetus rep farming isn't really something you can reliably do at a reasonable rate, either. Highest payout missions are time-gated. You can choose to run lower tier missions, for fixed, albeit low returns, or fish/mine. It's not humane, is all.
I agree with a lot of the stuff here. I was so excited for this update, but I got in and found EVERYTHING was locked behind rep. Ok, let's do bounties. ... They don't feel right. Because of the massive distance between areas it changes the feel of the game. It's not fast paced anymore, it's do some stuff here, run for two minutes, do some stuff here....Then I looked into archwing and found it gated behind DAYS of research. Now I found out there are charges....AND it requires farming from plains to use?? I am really frustrated so far. The look and feel of the plains is fantastic, but they have some issues with how it plays.
Warframe has always been a game that I can jump into and get something done fast. I'm never bored cause I'm always cutting through hoards of foes. Now I go get a bounty, run somewhere and do an objective, then run 600 meters at least to somewhere else. Totally changes the feel of the game for me.
Also, I don't like the feel of the bounty objectives as much. The defense type ones seem way more difficult to defend, and enemies are all over the place and hard to spot against the terrain. It takes me much longer to spot and target a foe against these back grounds. Some might say "it requires more skill". True, but it changes the FEEL too - doesn't have that "satisfying feeling of cutting down hoards" that makes Warframe so fun to play. And that's really dangerous....I feel like they are in danger of loosing the essence of the game.
I'm not trying to be overly negative, but I want DE to hear the feedback. I'll give it some more time tonight and we'll see, but based on the three hours I spent last night I've lost 90% of my excitement for this update.
Vitality from Infested Salvage levels of joke
Doesn't it update after every single "mission" or bounty you do in the Plains? Or it's supposed to? If it didn't do that then you should write support about it, because I'm positive it was supposed to auto-update incrementally to prevent this exact thing from happening
Completed a tier 5 bounty solo, got an ayatan amber star as a reward.. Wohoo, sigh
I'll admit, when this update was released, the amount of content to explore was really overwhelming. Just looking at all of the resources that needed to be farmed was more than enough to tell me that I'm in for a ride.
Although, I don't actually find that bad, and that's subjective. I actually find it fun that this will be the first update where I don't complete everything that's in it within a few hours. For the first time in a long while, I actually WANT to farm things.
However, there are some blatant resource and time sinks that are just shitty. I mean, fucking sky archwing still needs to be researched, AND WITH CHARGES? Bullshit.
I don't think the reputation cost of things is the problem, some people can like that, some people won't but the REAL problem with the current Cetus/Quills reputation is that their daily limit is currently tied to the measly daily Syndicate Standing limit, when they said it was separate and larger than the usual Syndicate limit. For something that encourages you to explore the plains to get points to spend on items, it sure does end up limiting you too much daily.
Focus 2.0 Grind is pretty fucked over though but I am getting a lot more focus than before due to those Convergence buffs. Albeit, I do have a setup that does net me a fair amount of focus per run, this isn't something that everyone would already have the items/frames for. Although, I noticed that there doesn't seem to be a daily limit to Focus points? The little notification thingy that pops up when you spend focus points that tells you how much focus you can gain for the day isn't showing up anymore. Visual bug? Who knows.
Just needs a little bit more polishing, but I'm pretty satisfied with the majority of this update, besides the shitty Sky Archwing timegating and the bugged(?) Cetus standing limit.
EDIT: I might be confused here, maybe only the Quills standing was connected to daily Syndicate limits? Will have to check again.
EDIT 2: Confirmed, Quills standing was the one affected by daily syndicate limits. Pretty fucking sad if you ask me.
No, people are unhappy because they already realised how much work, not playing, is it going to take to achieve higher tiers of anything in cetus.
I fucking hate whenever people say "everything at day 1", because it's used to dismiss any arguments about rewards/time/effort balance, without discussing the argument itself.
It took me and a friend several attempts but we finally completed a (tier 4?) bounty without any bugs and we were rewarded with 50 endo! Yay!
Steve talked about the Skywing stuff on his stream yesterday. From a design perspective, he said the goal behind charges was to keep Skywing from being the only mode of play in the Plains. That said, he also said he was eager for feedback about how the charges feel.
Considering the design goal of not having players spend 100% of the time in Skywing, I wonder how else it could be handled: I can think of a few ways: (1) Skywing as mobility only, with no ability to fight; (2) Skywing on a timer so you cannot just hop in and out if it all willy-nilly; (3) Skywing having limited fuel so you can't stay in it forever.
I'm not sure if any of those would feel better than charges, or if they would achieve the design goals as effectively?
Holy shit that's actually so fucking stupid. You complete Gara's quest as an MR3 and then see it requires Kuva, look it up because what the fuck is that, and spoil the entire plot.
So I have to do fishing/mining in order to use my archwing on the plains? Just what I want when I log on for some space ninja time... fishing.
Yeah, I'm done for a while. I'll check back in a week and see if any of this ridiculous un-fun, non-ninja grind has been fixed.
You need lube to fold up your archwing so it will fit in a pokeball
Honestly if hes above MR 14 then the game is functionally cleared by this point and there is not much reason to go back to it.
The grind is fine, it was the excuse i needed to quit my job and and dedicate my life full time for this game.
Srly, i was expecting so many other things to go wrong, i was expecting the low level mobs to be boring, turns out the plains are pretty damn challenging. The night fight to be boring, turns out its quite cool.
But this is what went wrong, the fucking grind xD is too damn grindy, 4k hours in this game and i never had issue with the grind... until now.
Rly, i dont get it, if we already have a daily standing cap, why the hell make so damn hard to farm it? Also whats up with every gosh darn thing in cetus be sold by standing? Low MR´s wont be able to buy shit cuz their cap is too damn low, is that how you wanna bring new people to the game DE? And to to make things worse, the Quills standing is shared with cetus! Should be 25k for each every day.
I think we should appreciate the journey guys.
I do think you hit an important note here that OP is missing. That Cetus is meant to give us something to do long term. We're at day 1 and people are unhappy they don't have everything already.
The other stuff makes sense though. Clan-Tech is a group effort of pooling resources for tech (or meant to be).
Primes are directly related to the void and its mysteries, previously keys/towers and now fissures.
Syndicate Standing for Syndicate Sigils and Syndicate Weapons makes sense as well.
Each thing is a separation of concerns, you can choose not to do it and it only locks you out of that one, very related, thing.
Archwing Fuel (consumables) to traverse the Plains faster is not relating to fishing.
Now if you can Fish and trade fish for more Fishing Spears or Bait, that would be the proper connection, in a game sense. As it allows the player to Choose and invest in a given thing that they want to do.
Best of both worlds would be a set number of free charges per mission that replenish when you go back to Cetus. You'd have to ration them, but not grind for them.
Yes but researching the segment to build them takes 3 days
I'm not saying they have struck the right balance, but it needs to be limited. As Steve mentioned on his stream, there's a real issue where if you can Archwing everywhere you want, Warframe (at least in PoE) is going to turn into a "helicopter game", which eliminates all the great gameplay they have on the ground in terms of movement, parkour, warframes, weapons, etc that exist there.
Again, I'm not saying that it's in the right spot, but I'm definitely OK with limitations on Archwing, whether it's resource-based, cooldown, or something else.
"only" for something that should've been unlimited?
I played for 6 hours straight.
I had all 4 boosters up to be optimal and quick.
Standing gain was abysmal. One bounty chain is bugged. Anything with a drone escort is impossible without optimal frame or a full squad.
Oh, matchmaking doesn't work on the plains. And squads in Cetus can't consistently go to the plains together. You have to have one person go to the plains, invite the others and wait till everyone joins. But basically disbanding squad every bounty.
You can't build archwing charges without about an hour and a half of fishing. Why would a combat upgrade require so much fishing!?
Focus gains haven't scaled up and new lenses are very hard to come by (busted bounties). But all focus costs are greatly increased. I has 1.2 mil focus and got 3 levels on two nodes each.
The bones of this update are great but the economy is so so bad.
This update is far from SotR's level of bugs. Not even close.
As long as it takes, from the same people that put farming a warframe in an early planet, but you cant farm the resources to craft it until a later planet.
They didnt think it out very well.
It's like 3-4 oils per fish but then you don't get rep for them.
make it reusable gear, like the mining lazer/fishing spar. but give it a 5 minute cool down, problem solved..
Yeah. Skywing, all the rewards being utter shit.. A part of me is hoping this is just a nasty, day 1 practical joke. But I know, I know, oh oh oh...
That someone at DE will say something along the lines of New Arcanes and items being devalued to justify low returns...
Consumable and each charge has a limited time. RIP.
Me and two of my buddies ALMOST took down a sentient. Was intense af and a pretty good fight actually.
I would honestly love to be able to do bounties, but half the time one or two of my teammates will crash upon completing an objective, or the next one wont spawn, or we will fail it immediately upon start. Shit needs to be fixed.
Also i agree with the op - even at cap it is going to take a few days to hit the first tier of the new factions.
Yeah, the same way youre forced to do fissures for prime gear, forced to do invasions to get fieldrons etc, forced to be in a clan to get clan tech. You cant expect to be a completionist/do everything while avoiding content.
Just a minor correction: it takes only one hour to make those 50 charges.
Edit: Wonwill430 noted that the "hours" actually meant the time spent to acquire the resources, rather than the time you have to wait for the charges to build. It was a misunderstanding due to some missing context.
I'm disliking PoE more with every hour, seriously. It also feels like there's no scaling in diffculty when you're playing alone, def missions are incredibly hard and escort ones are super annoying because enemies can literally keep hitting the droid from 200 meters away with their automatic rifles..