Christian: "If Muslims are going to come to our country they need to be respectful of everyone no matter what their religion says" Also Christian: "I don't have to bake a cake for gays because of what my religion says"

Christian: "If Muslims are going to come to our country they need to be respectful of everyone no matter what their religion says" Also Christian: "I don't have to bake a cake for gays because of what my religion says"

Seems hypocritical to me...

Omg you won't believe the shit storm I caused when I called out a Christian friend on Facebook regarding the cake story. It went something like this:

Christian: Look at these poor bakery owners. They had to shut down their shop after getting sued for 150,000 dollars for adhering to their faith.

Me: yeah, but they made over 400,000 dollars from fundraising and public speaking engagements on conservative media outlets. Plus, if you listen to them, they're sort of condescending and pretty rude, which probably didn't help their lawsuit.

Christian: Well they were just defending their faith! It's not fair!

Me: So is it fair to discriminate?

Christian: The gay couple.should have just gone somewhere else. Everyone is just so sue happy.

Me: No.. this was more than just about money. It was to punish people who clearly broke the law by discriminating against a gay couple for their sexual orientation and denying them service based on that alone.

Christian: Well they shouldn't have to be forced to break their religious beliefs.

Me: If it was a black couple, would it be okay to deny them a cake sale based on the fact they're black?

Christian: That's not the same thing.

Me: It's absolutely the same thing. It's still discrimination.

Christian: No it's not. Businesses should be allowed the right to refuse business with whoever they want.

Me: That's true to a point, but not when it comes to discrimination based on civil rights, like skin color, sexual orientation, religious affiliation, etc. There's a reason we have these laws because people used to suffer discrimination over race back in the fifties. It helps prevent future businesses from encouraging that type of discrimination.

Christian: But it's not the same thing!

Me: How is it not the same?

Christian: it's wrong if it was over race because black people can't help what color of skin they're born in to. But gay people chose to live their lifestyles that way, so it's not the same thing.

Me: ...

This conversation went on and on and on. At the end of it, I wanted to bash my keyboard on the desk.

Nothing was accomplished, unfortunately :-(

My favorite reply when someone says homosexuality is a choice is to ask them when they chose to be straight.

If that doesn't get them, ask if they could choose to be gay right then and there.

The thing with that argument though, is that a lot of Christian men apparently do "choose" to be "straight". That's why you always hear stories of fine, upstanding members of their church being caught in rest stops with a dick in their mouth. These men ARE gay, they just can't accept it. For these men it IS a choice. They tell themselves that they are fighting the urges, so should everyone else. It's simply never occurred to them that for everyone else, it isn't a choice. They think that we ALL wrestle with these demons.

In the end it makes for some delicious irony.

This is not a Christian country. If Christians want to live here, they are going have to accept American values and live by the Constitution. Islam is just as American as Christianity.

Regarding the cake thing - the Constitution specifically gives the government the right to regulate commerce. If they want to engage in public commerce, they have to abide by the regulations set in place by the government. If Christians don't like America they can get the fuck out.

What a sad, tortured life to live having to fight against your most basic and natural thoughts and instincts.

Did it for years, it was absolutely fucking miserable.

I'll throw this out, not because I agree with it but because this is how it has been explained to me. A great many Christians believe in free will and that it is unethical to force anyone else to adhere to your beliefs. Additionally, it is unethical to commit harm to others. Therefore, they are against abortion even though it forces people to adhere to a belief. I say this now because people like to jump in with "But Abortion!" (I'm pro-choice, in case anyone wants to target me instead of the arguments at hand).

In the case of baking a cake for a gay person like myself, it's not that they wont serve gay people. It's that they do not want to condone gay marriage and wish to exercise their right not to do so. As Christians, they believe it is unethical to force someone to provide a service (which is why many Christians argue that healthcare is not a right, as it also requires forcing someone to provide a service and they believe that anything requiring someone else's direct labour cannot be considered a right). I'm pro universal healthcare, before people also bring that up to try targeting me instead of the arguments at hand.

You have painted a straw man of sorts, and while I disagree with Christians who would refuse me or my partner should we wish to marry, I also think we do ill to portray them as mindless and set ourselves up for failure when interacting with them or debating them.

Muslims and Jews also resist providing services to the lgbt community in the US, if you haven't noticed. But they're not the majority, so it's uncool to pick on them eh? In the case of all three, they believe that they have a duty to follow the laws of their host countries, but also to follow the laws of the Abrahamic God who is against deviation from heterosexual marriage. This isn't every Muslim, Jew, or Christian mind you, but it is a sizeable portion from each.

In a way, having the right to not bake a cake for an event they disagree with is what Christians believe as being respectful of everyone. Just as I couldn't force a baker to provide food for a Nazi rally, I therefore shouldn't be able to force them to provide food for my wedding. Just as they could decline providing a service for a heterosexual couple, they argue that lgbt couples shouldn't be put on a pedestal of protection.

Personally I don't like this argument because it acts as a veil for people who want to push their bigoted beliefs on others. But at the same time the alternative-- forcing a person to reluctantly serve me under threat of punishment-- seems nonsensical as well, and only perpetuates the belief that my community is some kind of organized force with a "gay agenda".

I do wish there was a better middle ground in the grand scheme of things, and I think we do well to acknowledge that their argument has merit so that we are in a posture to begin discussing a better way. If we merely paint others as ignorant bigots, we only teach them to keep those opinions to themselves-- but keep them. Then, when moments arise where they can feel free to share those opinions they've been keeping and nurturing in their hearts, we see people like Trump elected.

By creating straw man arguments like the above, and failing to actually treat people like sane individuals with their own perspectives and logic, we have nurtured a United States that holds a great many dangerous ideologies and attitudes because instead of discussion and education, we have primarily relied on ridicule.

not baking a cake

executing gays

ur right, totally the same thing

I know this is basically useless coming from a stranger on the other side of a screen, but I'm sorry you had to go through that. I firmly believe if you can weather that storm, you have the strength to take on anything.

"Being straight is just too boring. I want the challenge of millions of idiots hating me and wanting to beat me up or even murder me. Better learn to be sexually attracted to the same sex to cement this cool choice I'm making!" /s

I once read the autobiography of a gay Christian man. He tried so hard to choose to be straight, he spent a few decades hating himself and feeling so bad. He even went to gay conversion therapy by choice, he just had to try to "fix" himself. It didn't work because being gay isn't a choice! No matter what he tried, he was still gay. He finally accepted himself and was a lot happier.

I will never understand why anyone cares about someone else being gay. I mean, I guess it has something to do with religion, but still, I can't relate to caring even a little bit about what type of consensual sex my friend or some stranger has. It's not even a little bit important, it shouldn't even be an issue. It just goes to show that whipping people into a frenzy over a fake "enemy" (they do it with race/religion too) will make them less likely to notice the things that are important, like the fact that we are bombing people and have no healthcare.

If the service they are being asked to perform is no different than what they would do for any other customer then they shouldn't be allowed to discriminate. If what they are being asked to create is significantly different than the product they typically create, such as having sexually explicit elements, they should be allowed to refuse the work based on the description of what the couple wanted whether the couple is straight or gay.

I agree with what you are saying, I just want to add to something that you briefly touched upon. If a member of ANY religious group (Christian, Muslim , Hindu, etc) doesn't value the secular foundation upon which this country was built and tries to force his or her belief onto others, he or she can get out.

Thanks for the kind words :)

Don't worry too much about it. I got A LOT happier once I accepted it. It's weird actually, it kind of felt like I was denying my own happiness for a really, really long time. I've been out for a little bit and it feels like I can take on anything. Even started losing weight, about to get a new job, and I'm gonna start taking up hobbies I've always wanted to (Airsoft and Skateboarding if you're wondering).

There's still a few rough situations out there, like with my parents for example. My mom is VERY religious so she's had some interesting things to say about it all, but she'll come around :)

I guess I'm crazy but I firmly believe in the right to refuse service to anyone..

This is one of the few cases where I feel we in the non religious community are greatly over reacting. Suck it up, write a bad review and go to the next cake shop.

Edit: I get it, some of you disagree and you're passionate about it. But you're all saying the same thing and I don't think you make a compelling arguments.

Freedom in my opinion goes both ways and no this doesn't mean Rosa Parks should have kept her ass in the back as that is a completely different situation.

If homosexuality is a choice then why would someone actively and deliberately choose to be second-class citizen without the benefits that heterosexuals enjoy, be a victim of death threats, verbal and physical abuse and possibly be murdered, be rejected by family and society, be denied a fair trial in some societies and executed on the spot by its citizens, and be considered as immoral and flawed as a human being, and just outright be a sinner destined for hell according to the religious? This lacks logic, reason, and isn't even remotely rational.

However what is a choice, is the choice to be religious and learn to hate and discriminate people. You can convert your religion, but you can't convert your sexual orientation - that causes severe psychological damage. In fact being religious and the indoctrination process causes mental defects to develop and only amplifies any psychological disorders that have naturally occurred.

"Homosexuality isn't natural!". Neither is religion motherfuckers, and we're the only species to be homophobic - it's taught and religion is at the core which includes misogyny.

Honestly, the practices of Christianity have no place in modern society either. It just depends on how far you take it, and lately Christians in the US want to take it really damn far.

Why do Muslims always seem to get a free pass though? Many muslim cultures are far more intolerant than our conservative Christians. I mean, not for nothing, but not getting a cake is pretty tame compared to outright being killed.

I don't get the current atheist movement. I'm an atheist and when I was studying abroad in the Middle East I was too afraid to tell people that I was (people there ask you about religion all the time, even strangers on the street, so it came up a lot). I told everyone I was Christian because even though they're second class citizens there it was easier to explain. Western women in the same program weren't allowed to leave the dorm without men, not for religious reasons but for their safety.

Somehow I identify politically more with conservative Christians instead of most of my fellow atheists.

Sharia Law by and large strips women of their rights as humans. There is nothing equivalent practiced today in such a widespread fashion by Christians.

I absolutely agree. The Christian friend I had that conversation with even went as far as saying "Well, I think they're both in the wrong. The bakers should have just baked a cake, but made it crappy to show their displeasure with the gay couple and try to discourage them with a bad cake so they don't come back or recommend to their other gay friends." I was like "You really have no idea why that is no different than denying service altogether, do you?"

Like Psychotic said, Pigeon chess. Haha, I'm going to remember that from now on.

What's even more infuriating is that the LGBT couple filed for discrimination which would have been a $2k fine (iirc) but they did it personally and the complaint had their address and other info. The reason it escalated was because the business owners posted their info online and Christians started threatening the LGBT couple so much that their adopted child foster children were almost taken away because of the danger. That's what the bigger lawsuit damage was about, but Christians deny the responsibility because they're "a peaceful religion".


What they don't get is if the situation was reversed they would be crying the loudest about discrimination. If the best event planner in town refused to work on Christian events these people would be screaming how unfair and illegal that was.

Millions of christians fervently believe that teenaged boys simply make a decision "hey, I think I'll choose to get aroused when I see a dick rather than boobs".

It's horrible to see how religious indoctrination can completely demolish people's ability to think and reason.

My boss wondered out loud once (in reference to an obviously lesbian coworker) "Why would she choose to date women, when she could do so much better with men?"

I told him I don't ever remember really choosing my sexual preference, 'do you?'. I think maybe a light bulb went off.

Why won't you bake any cakes Christian? Fucks sake.

Im sorry but Islam really isn't like Christianity at all. The practices of Islam have no place in western society until they can be much less authoritative over people. There is no place for sharia law in the west.

Yeh very strange times we live in. Criticising Islam is almost taboo.

I think the left have become wedged on the topic because of their need to resist Trump in anyway possible.

It makes me feel bad because my name is Christian.

I don't think you've given this a minute of serious thought.

Refusing to make something for a ceremony that you find offensive isn't disrespectful, even if someone thinks your reasons for finding it offensive are silly. Should an atheist craftsman be required to accept commissions for religious symbols? Of course, you've chosen wording that makes it sound like the Christians are refusing to serve gay customers at all, instead of just refusing to make wedding cakes for them.

The first statement is about what people should do, but the second is about whether something should be legally required. Again, you've chosen words that obscure this.

Ah yes, the christians complaining that muslims will bring in sharia law while openly practicing their own version of sharia law. Typical christian hypocrisy.

Christian: it's wrong if it was over race because black people can't help what color of skin they're born in to. But gay people chose to live their lifestyles that way, so it's not the same thing.

...and what about religious people?

If gay people can choose to be gay, then you shouldn't discriminate because religion is protected.

If gay people can't choose to be gay, then you shouldn't discriminate because race is protected.

How can so many millions of people fail on such basic critical thinking?

This is what islamic apologetics fail to grasp.

YES, christian is very bad, but fuck my life if Islam isn't worse.

Comparing the two is ALMOST apples and oranges.

That was a very insightful comment on the mindset of some "Christians." I do, however, want to provide a counterpoint as to why that mindset is not technically Christian.

Jesus pretty plainly spells out that the way one treats another person should not be based on anything that other person does, but how you would prefer to be treated. If you would not have someone discriminate against you for your sexual orientation, you should likewise not discriminate against others for the same.

The Bible has multiple examples of Jesus helping those who Jewish society labeled as sinners not worthy of compassion or association. Hell, the Man even goes so far as to remind the Jews that every one of them were sinners and should knock all that labeling shit off. If you consider yourself a Christian, but refuse someone because they are a "sinner," you are doing a great disservice to the man your entire belief system is based on. Splinters, rafters, 77 times forgiveness and all that jazz.

Seems hypocritical to me that some of the same people have no problem bowing down to Muslims but have no problem ripping on Christianity.

This comparison is so dumb. Why is /sub/atheism defending Islam now? What happened to this place?

But more importantly, why does anyone need an excuse to not bake a cake?

I forget exactly who it was but there was a Christian Republican on the Rubin Report a little while back who said something along the lines of "I think that humans are naturally bi-sexual because in every civilization before the Abrahamic religions people had relations with both men and women." It was a welcome surprise to hear that from him since he was older, and I wish more people realized that homosexuality was around long before their religion was.

There's a Muslim bakery who also refused a gay couple..

I believe (and so do many, based on what's in place) that there should be some regulations to prevent a hateful powerful majority from hurting a minority. For instance, firing someone (or refusing to serve someone) because they are black/jewish/etc. might sound fine to you, but when it is more beneficial to businesses to cater only to whites/christians/etc., what are the minorities to do? Some regulations are needed to protect everyone and give everyone the same chance in society. And those regulations should be enforced.

i completely agree. this is a very smart response with a thorough explanation. thanks for taking the time to type this.

It doesn't relate to their actual religious teachings, but they still justify everything with religion. Their savior Jesus Christ tells them not to judge others and to be accepting. He never says anything negative about being gay, only the old testament does right next to the passage about how it's a mortal sin to get a tattoo.

Well yeah, but in their minds they are 100% straight with evil gay thoughts and urges. So they kind of assume everyone else is the same way and that we all have to unite and stand together and use the government and the law to make those urges illegal so we don't all of a sudden devolve into a society of gay orgies around every corner.

OP, you do compare the two religions on an equal level of concern with the title. I mean i get the point you're trying to make, but it's a false comparison. Almost all religious people are hypocritical, we know that, that's why we are on this subreddit. Cake travesties aren't going to help our cause, they make it look petty.

There isn't always a "somewhere else" in small towns.

This is exactly right. If you are a business open to the public, you may choose what products and services you offer, but you may not choose who your customers are. For example, a kosher deli may choose not to sell pork, but it cannot refuse to let a Muslim customer buy some pastrami.

Islam has taken it way farther. In 2017, the two aren't even comparable. Please stop acting like the two religions are the same or even that modern-day Christianity is somehow worse. Islam. Is. By. Far. Worse.

You're supposed to be /sub/atheism, yet you won't call out the worst religion of the big 5.

This was heart warming to read....damn...blow jobs for everyone!!!

You're comparing refusing to bake a cake to honor killings, acids attacks, beheadings, female genital mutilation, knife attacks, truck bombings, suicide bombings, truck attacks, oh and the killing of gays. I guess I could have just said, no cake vs killing gays, but then I was on a roll.

Christian: it's wrong if it was over race because black people can't help what color of skin they're born in to. But gay people chose to live their lifestyles that way, so it's not the same thing.

By that logic, didn't the christians choose to live their lifestyle that way?

That won't work everywhere. Imagine a small country town with only a handful of shops. These people won't be able to get service there because of how they're born?

Seems unfair. Not to mention the pandora box shit. If you suddenly allow people to discriminate on services, where will it end? It kinda goes all or nothing.

I don't give a shit if gays get their cakes or not. It seems a ridiculous reason for me, but the bigger picture is actually concerning. If you start discriminating, there's no telling where you'll end up.

Exactly. Discrimination doesn't happen on that level, because we fucking outlawed it. It became illegal because it was so rampant, so divisive, that eventually the majority got tired of listening the the hate minority's BS. As you look at the U.S. lately, do you think we're becoming better people? I don't, I think we're pretty much the same as all our forebearers. If we allow ourselves to start saying that hate is ok again, we have only ourselves to blame for the results.

You should said.

If dating men is so much better why don't you do it?

Well, to be fair they didn't say Muslims have to bake cakes...

Ask them if it would be okay to discriminate against people who go to church on Sundays. Because that's actually a lifestyle choice, and not genetic or hormonal.

You don't choose when Jesus decides to fill you.

I'm sure if some journalists also shopped around for a gay-wedding-discriminating Muslim bakery they could find it.

edit: downvotes? Yeah you guys are right, Islam goes together with Gay Rights like peanut butter and jelly /s

So ignore ongoing issues because other people were bad in the past? I don't think that is a good idea. We should focus on NOW more than historically. There are gay men being thrown off roofs now, women getting their clits cut off now. We should probably focus on that instead of re-litigating the Catholic power structure in Spain in the 1500's.

I suspect you're absolutely right, and you articulated it well. If you imagine yourself there, where you're caught between your religious indoctrination and your nature, it explains a lot of this behavior as outright projection. "I can't be gay because of religious beliefs that I refuse to question, so nobody else can either". It's a sad and selfish way to be, but I'm starting to believe this is the case. It's a form of mental illness, I suppose, but it'll be awhile before anyone recognizes religion as a cause of mental illness.

It seems hypocritical to me that a Christian baker will get put on blast for refusing to bake a cake for gay people, but no one bats an eye lash when Muslims refuse to bake a cake for the same reason.

Thats not even taking into account that Islam is the religion that has its members throw gay people of buildings while "moderates" wait in the streets below and cheer on the executions.

The examples you are giving are so extreme I'd call bullshit if someone said they really happened.

But these things did happen and that's why civil rights laws were written. Haven't you ever read a history book?

Not baking a cake: same thing as throwing gays of rooftops. That must be one tasty cake.

I'm really happy to hear that! Best of luck with everything :)

Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the exact same God.

Like Muslim bakers would do it lmao

I live in NYC and it's really bad. There are actually a couple neighborhoods where members of that religion congregate. They're pretty terrible and obnoxious and they harass people.

If you are a woman and you try to bike through one of their neighborhoods in the summer while wearing shorts and a tank top, they will literally chase after you, screaming and throwing things because you're not covered up enough.

They form local religious police groups that go around trying to enforce their religious beliefs on their members or anyone who moves into their neighborhoods.

They are incredibly strict with members of their own religion in their neighborhood and try to shut down bars and anything else that attempts to creep into their hoods.

Oh, wait - I forgot. Those are actually the Hassidic Jews who do that.

The Muslims I've met in NYC are actually pretty chill.

I'm actually going to an Irish bar in Little Egypt tonight for St. Paddy's day. you people all seriously think that Islam is better or on par with Christianity? ITT people are acting like Christianity's the worst, yet turn around and hypocritically bash Islam. I don't mind if you bash religions but FFS, at least know which one is the worst.

Christianity is to Islam as Victorian Era values are to Nazism. Like, the two aren't even comparable. Whatever problems you might have with Christianity, look tame compared to Islam on almost every metric.

Steven Crowder did this. Was refused service at every Muslim bakery.

Less cutting off heads though

Which religion; today, do you think bears more ill will towards homosexuals?

Where do you think a gay pride rally would be better received, the vatican or mecca?

But gay people chose to live their lifestyles that way

Reminds me of a conversation I had with my brother in law a while ago.

Him: It's a sin to be gay.

Me: What makes it a sin?

Him: They live an immoral lifestyle.

Me: What is the gay lifestyle?

Him: going to bars and hooking up with random strangers.

Me: So, if a heterosexual person was going to bars and hooking up, would they be gay?

Him: No

Me: So, if a homosexual couple gets married and stays monogamous, are they straight?

Him: No

Me: So what's they homosexual lifestyle?

Him: Going to bars and having extramarital sex

Me: ...ok


There is no attempt to enforce Shariah in the US. No power to do so either. Christian theocracy is a different story. It's not Muslims that are passing laws to stop gay people from adopting kids or using "religious freedom" as an excuse for discrimination.

Thanks man :D

I may not be the most informed on law and such, but I do think businesses should have the freedom to discriminate. If a business discriminated against blacks or whites, atheists, christians, or muslims, or gays/transgenders, I do not think they should be forced to provide service to people they do not wish to serve. This concept wouldn't apply only to businesses but also to a reasonable extent of other private institutions as well.

At least in the US, we are at a time period where all humans, regardless of their race or sexual orientation, have basic rights such as marriage, voting rights, and have the means to live a independent, fruitful and happy life. The worst thing that happens to these minority groups as a whole is getting offended nowadays. The oppression is gone. I think forcing businesses to serve gays when they do not wish to makes them just as bad as the gay-hating groups. It looks like they are dropping to their level, and makes me sad to see it happen.

Of course, I would prefer if there were no discrimination. That is an ideal we may one day achieve. But as of now, I still think they should have the freedom to do so without being attacked. Seriously, go somewhere else.

I have an irregular view on things, if anyone could identify flaws in it I'd welcome it

I guess I'm crazy but I firmly believe in the right to refuse service to anyone..

Not crazy, just wrong imo.

People have every right to be racist or homophobic. However, if one opens up a public business they must and should cater to all.

This is one of the few cases where I feel we in the non religious community are greatly over reacting. Suck it up, write a bad review and go to the next cake shop.

What if there's only one cake shop in town?

What if all four supermarkets decide they don't want to sell to blacks?

What if both book stores decide they don't want to sell to disabled folks?

Human beings are cunts to one another. Legislation is required to keep this to a minimum.

My Muslim friend can palm a basketball but I can't. Seems unfair. :(

Ah, I suppose Rosa Parks should have left the bus and found a more suitable one.

Come off with that bullshit, dude. We can't sit back and let people impose their false constructs of religious, sexual, or ethnic superiority on each other. Had this always been the case, we never would have moved past segregation. According to your logic, black people should have been content with black-stores and black-restrooms.

He did. He said Islam sucks. And it does. So does Christianity, Judaism, etc. All religions are a waste of time and overall harm critical thinking within a society.

I don't get this whole ranking shit that everyone gets obsessed with. Whats the point of saying one religion is worse than another? They're all shit and will (I hope) eventually be phased out of society one day.

One thing that I think is rarely seen mentioned in any of these discussions is a very simple one. The obligations of a guest and the obligations of a host. A guest is obligated to not be a burden on the host while the host is obligated to not make the guest feel uncomfortable for being a guest. In that regard both Christians and Muslims that display bigotted behaviour have failed.

Although all religions are bad, I do not think that all of them are equally bad. Islam is far worse than Christianity; look at purely Islamic nations such as Saudi Arabia. Their laws are far more oppressive than those proposed by Christians in the US. Whereas Christians deny gays service, strict Islamic nations throw them from the top of buildings.

Shut the fuck up. what is this a high school atheist subreddit?

So you're saying Muslims should be allowed to disrespect people with different beliefs, but Christians should not?

I think what OP is saying is not baking a cake is the same as throwing someone off a building.

And believing we as a society have learnt the mistakes of the past is naive.

History has a tendency to repeat itself.

Oh but their response in that argument would be "Well, I wouldn't do business with gay couples because it goes against my religion. I'd just go somewhere else".


I don't know, even with your post I get the impression that a lot of people see it as "Hah, look at the Christian being hypocritical". The way I see it is that even the socially inflexible (e.g. Christians) are scared at how socially inflexible Islam is. It is slightly hypocritical, but Islam is just on a different level. The response is justified IMO.

The way I see it is

Islam: We kill the gays! Christians: We won't bake them cakes!

I guess a part of me sees your example as a moment of clarity more than hypocrisy. I mean, they are aware enough to say: "no that's too far".

They're not trying to do that. It's the Christians that are trying to do that.

I'm saying that places like /sub/atheism should be the most vocal, but some people still walk on egg shells over it..

My understanding is that Christians don't think every life is sacred. They think innocent lives are sacred. They consider fetuses to be innocent -- they do not consider people on death row to be innocent.

Me too brother, fuck this ignorance.

Don't you see a problem with being legally entitled to someones labour? Isn't a free market the voluntary exchange of goods and services?

A free pass for what? What the fuck are you talking about? What can a Muslim do that you can't do?

Just look at how they respond to companies chosing g to say happy holidays over Merry Christmas. It will tell you all you need to know.

But there's no media storm, or buisness ruined when a Muslim bakery in Michigan refused to bake a cake for a gay wedding.....

Good god the delusion of you people. Even the worst fundamental Christians don't compare to sharia law. Heads up your asses



Like these ones, in Steven Crowder's .

This is going to sound crazy, but I think people should be free to bake a cake for whomever they want.

They could also be bisexual, but your point stands.

Whoa. I did not know that

However, if one opens up a public business they must and should cater to all.

Why? If they are okay with the loss of income discrimination can cause then that's their prerogative.

What if there's only one cake shop in town?

Bake your own or go out of town. I don't like my local hardware store so I drive 3 hours so I can go to Lowes as I feel they provide better service.

What if all four supermarkets decide they don't want to sell to blacks?

4 super markets in your town and every one of them refuses service to blacks? Then I suspect you probably have bigger issues and should look into moving for your own safety as you're probably in a very racist community.

What if both book stores decide they don't want to sell to disabled folks?

Order online.

So I think you're just wanting to play SJW. The examples you are giving are so extreme I'd call bullshit if someone said they really happened.

Discrimination does happen but it's far from the level you are describing to make your points.

What you're describing is a discriminatory pattern of governance by politicians. These politicians are usually elected by Christians, and therefore the voters bear some responsibility- true.

But I seriously doubt you are putting the above on the same field as stoning women for adultery, treating women as the property of their male family, and brutally executing gays as a common part of life. This is happening right now, in areas where Sharia Law reigns supreme.

What a shitty and narrow minded analogy

there are more center-right, libertarian, and conservative atheists out here than you think. not all of us are drinking the progressive kool-aide, /sub/atheism notwithstanding

This is what people don't understand. Being forced to do work for something you are morally opposed to is very heavy handed.

Everyone is for this level of force when its for something they agree with, but if it was ever turned around for a situation they don't agree with then they'd be up in arms.

Unless it threatens society, you shouldn't be forced to do anything. The civil rights movement was a little bit different... it had major societal effects, and ingrained segregation into the environment. Whether or not you bake a cake for a one time event would have no effect whatsoever, and there are plenty of people that would provide service.

Islam is worse at the moment. Comparing modern Islam with modern Christianity is apples and oranges, but if you compare both at their height of power, they're really not that different.

While I agree with you, theres a lot of christians, you could find contradictory statements different christians said pretty easily Im sure.

Name a 100% Christian society.

If the cake they ask me to make is not materially different than a cake I would make for any other customer why would I care? I really don't want to live in a world where we have to tell a business every detail about our personal, religious, and political viewpoints before any transaction can occur.

If the Nazi wanted a cake that looked like a gas chamber or the KKK wanted a cake that has a lynching scene on it, then I think the baker would be justified in refusing that order. If they are asking for a cake that says Happy Birthday Adolf, then I don't have a problem.

Come now. You know there's a difference between neutral tolerance and being forced to go against your religion. And you scoff and say, how is baking a cake against religion? It's probably that the bakers don't want to feel as if they're condoning homosexuality by baking a cake for the marriage of two homosexuals. Because Christianity explicitly condemns homosexuality. Not that I agree with it, just providing insight.

what are the minorities to do?

Shop somewhere else.. This is not the 1950's. Thankfully in 2017 we as humans for the most part have become very accepting of most things and you now have options. You say we need "regulations to prevent a hateful powerful majority from hurting a minority."

If you do not like the way people are doing business you go to someone else.

It really is that simple..

Well, no. Christianity isn't 'farther along'. Modern Christianity has to make more concessions to secularism than Islam does. It's not that Christianity's tenets or values have advanced. Christianity has lost traction and doesn't have the power it once did. Given the option, a Christian theocracy could be very bit as bad as an Islamic one, as history shows.

I think this describes your issue.