Alaska Cops Defend Their 'Right' to Sexual Contact With Sex Workers Before Arresting Them

Alaska Cops Defend Their 'Right' to Sexual Contact With Sex Workers Before Arresting Them

Sounds like theft of services. The sex workers should be suing the cops.

I'd say, "better fuck me or I'll arrest you" is a bit more like rape than theft.

Not sure if cops have a right to an illegal service.

There are only two important pieces of information in the article:

It is neither legal nor acceptable for a law enforcement officer to engage in sexual conduct with a person that that officer is investigating.

So it is already illegal.

What is specifically being made illegal is:

"(In an undercover investigation) they ask one simple question: 'Touch my breast.' OK, I'm out of the car. Done. And the case is over," Anchorage Police Department Deputy Chief Sean Case told the Alaska Dispatch News in a hypothetical example. "If we make that act (of touching) a misdemeanor, we have absolutely no way of getting involved in that type of arrest."

If you believe sex workers should have rights, which they should, then make it legal. Don't create bullshit law after bullshit law instead of fixing it at the root of the problem.

Ah, but "better fuck me and I'll arrest you"?

So if hookers pick a john up and say "let me suck your dick for a second before we talk money so I know you aren't a cop", that just beat the system. I hope that law passes, sex should be for trade as a service, all of the world has it but when its legal its better for everyone and you can tax it.

If you believe sex workers should have rights, which they should, then make it legal. Don't create bullshit law after bullshit law instead of fixing it at the root of the problem.

This so much. Regulation would save lives from (forced) drug addiction, rape/murder etc... What's evil is pimps and the nature of organized crime, not sex work...

So the Johns should be able to defend their right to have sex with the undercover cops posing as prostitutes before they can be arrested then.

Fair is fair.

After reading the article, pretty sure the issue the cops have is that "sexual contact" has been led to include touching the breasts and other minor contact. Therefore, easily bypass any sting by just saying, touch my breast. The cops arent arguing that they should have the right to bang hookers during undercover operations.

If bible thumpers would just grow up, our county country could finally start to move forward.

Edit typo

The article points out that a sex worker demanding for the undercover cop to "touch my breast" constitutes sexual contact.

This would all be a lot simpler if they'd legalize and license prostitution.

That's (hosting child porn) expressly for the purpose of catching people committing a crime by tracking the IP. Under the state law in most places, you are guilty of the crime of prostitution as soon as you agree on a specific price for specific services. In other words, no sexual activity need take place to support the charge.

"So... what's my motivation here, boss? I'm a little confused now."

When the FBI took down child porn rings on the darknet they actually ended up hosting their own images for weeks on end and when questioned about this by the court system, the FBI said that there was no precedent for them NOT sharing child pronography. So by the government's reasoning if it doesn't say that you can't.... then the ends justify the means.

It's also the FBI not some janky ass small town police department that runs with virtual immunity and no oversight.

"You're trying to become heir to the chocolate factory, but you're secretly an alien."

I agree, but I think it's better to just legalize prostitution outright than to pass a bill like this. The law should be as plain and simple as possible rather than a collection of loopholes.

Yeah it's definitely sexual assault and rape. Everyone has the right to say no, this includes sex workers.

Why does buying need to be illegal at all?

Right! Everytime time idiot authoritarians create a victimless crime, society is worse for it--black markets, decent people made into pariahs, inability to safely engage in activities which benefit from oversight.

Too bad the majority of us have to work and support the ones legislating our existences.

And repressed feelings. Three primary emotions. fear, pride and repressed feelings... And an unhealthy attachment to the past. The four... No. Amongst the primary emotions are such elements as... Let me start again.

Not sure it counts if the service is illegal.

But how would those noble policemen keep us safe from those sexy, sexy prostitutes?

The primary emotion of anyone clinging to outmoded religious beliefs is, in the end, always going to be fear. Fear and pride.

This makes me laugh. Prostitution is viewed as negative by the same people who voted for Mr. Grab 'em by the Pussy.

Wonder if they could claim rape as the consent they were given would not stand up.

You are about the only other person in this thread to have actually read the article and come to the logical conclusion. Everybody else just read the misleading headline and went straight to the cop bashing.

No politician could survive sponsoring this kind of bill (yet). Please be patient as the baby boomers will be all gone soon.

Can we just get a quickie and not ruin anyones lives?

Some people still consider prostitution to be a negative influence on society, and by legalizing the selling but not the buying, you maintain the ability to to legally clamp down on prostitution without the double victimization of sex workers. Not saying I hold these views, just my understanding of them.

I'm sure the FBI gets away with about the same tbh

only doing it because they have no better options, and so it's inherently coercive.

I feel that way about my job, too.

This is the only answer that makes plausible sense

Just legalize it whats the big deal. Legalize and ensure that no woman is forced or underage, checked for stds etc and thats it.

Do it quietly. Toronto did. It's still taboo, but the sex workers now have rights and shit. I don't really know the details, but I know it stemmed from rising security concerns for workers in the trade.

Yeah, bc that doesn't already happen today, right? Obviously these are the unavoidable negatives for some prostitutes, but in a regulated industry these negatives are much more easily avoided. Also, prostitutes would feel a lot more safe going to law enforcement for these issues.

Is it any worse than ruining the woman's life because the man wants a quicky?

The most common argument that I've heard is that many sex workers are only doing it because they have no better options, and so it's inherently coercive. Personally, I think that sounds more like an argument for better labor laws and social safety net programs than one against prostitution.

Civil forfeiture.

Prostitution should be legal for the sole reason of body autonomy. You have the right to do with your own body as you wish.

The secondary reason is because legalization protects sex workers and eliminates the profit motive for pimps to abuse and enslave sex workers.

In an argumentation class in college, I was on the pro-legalization team.

The other team argued that sex workers often have to resort to drugs and alcohol to cope with their jobs. I argued that teachers do, too.

Professor woulda spat out his drink if he'd had one 'cause he completely lost it in a fit of laughter.

If it's bible thumpers, why is it still illegal in chicago, new york, and los angeles? Put blame where it belongs.

Or ruining someone's life over a joint or a meth pipe or a debilitating drug addiction?

It's almost like our archaic, puritanical laws attempting to legislate morality and pleasure are fucking retarded and need to be revoked.

I wonder how that model feels about the stock photo she's in being used as a generic prostitute pic

Oh you mean the sensible thing and legalize, regulate, and license sex workers? As an adult you should have the right to choose what you do with your body, if that's using your sexual prowess to earn income so be it. Its a service your providing, fuck anyone who says its morally dubious. They can get their religious bigotry out of my face.

Main problem is in politics it is often better to create the illusion of solving problems than it is to actually solve them.

Consensual sex between adults is legal. Selling goods and services is legal.

Selling consensual sex between adults is illegal.

Please explain.

So if hookers pick a john up and say "let me suck your dick for a second before we talk money so I know you aren't a cop",

Somehow I suspect hookers will figure out another solution.

Such as?

It's not religious people who want prostitution illegal, it's lawmakers and cops. They want to appear tough on crime while not actually accomplishing much. Also those arrests bring in that sweet sweet cash by getting all those people in the system.

The entire thing is a scam. Same with the war on drugs, it's all bs to generate revenue and get more citizens committing victimless crimes into the system.

If it were really about making the country safer for its citizens then prostitution would be legal because then we wouldn't have so many abusive pimps and human traffickers.

I'm religious and I don't care if you pay for sex, I only care that the girls are treated well and actually choose to be there.

Why isn't sex work legal? It's 2017, geez.

It's completely fucking retarded that prostitution is even illegal in the first place. You can give it away for free but can't sell it? Idiotic moralizing. Who gives a single, solitary fuck that this law will make it harder for them to arrest sex workers? That's a good thing.

I guess it's so cold in Alaska that a "heated" debate is a "warm" welcome!

I'll see myself to the door now

Why not just have both legal?

Great! Now I have to start worrying ICE is going to arrest and detain me!?

Best way to legalize prostitution is to make selling legal, and buying illegal. Think about it. It changes the power structure completely.

Intergalactic Customs Enforcement

Police officers can do literally anything they want and certain people will still worship them like heroic gods who can do no wrong.

Just make sure you have a video camera and say you're making a porno so you can't get arrested for hiring a prostitute, flawless

I read it, I also read the bill http://www.akleg.gov/basis/Bill/Text/30?Hsid=SB0073A

which isn't linked in the article which bugs me.

I hate President Pussy Grabber as much as the next guy, but it's not like the DNC platform calls for the legalization of prostitution. Over moralizing is a problem on the right and the left.

Current year!

I wish some girl would suck my dick to make sure I'm not a cop....

No. This is the Nordic model and it sucks. It makes it harder for sex workers to screen our clients thus removing a very important safety measure. One important thing between sex workers and clients is the shared risk. Either we are both illegal or neither is.

They're not talking about full-on intercourse. That's already illegal in Alaska. Per the article, it's illegal in all fifty states as of earlier this year:

Only two months ago, Michigan became the last state in the U.S. to make it illegal for police officers to sexually penetrate sex workers in the course of an investigation.

First paragraph of the article.

you are putting a shit ton of people at risk to be coerced into prostitution.

Well, prostitution is everywhere. People who owe debt or are told things or addicted to something are already going to be prostitutes.

People could be blackmailed, threatened, drugged, or whatever.

Like they are now? Except taxed, legal and have an incentive to be clean?

There are numerous ways that people could be forced to turn prostitute while being a less-than-willing participant.

Like 90% of prostitution now? Except they don't get any help but a jail sentence and a need to go back to it?

It's not like the police are going to bust down doors and check that you're doing this of your own free will

Sure they will, they do in nevada. Its a big source of revenue, thats actually a huge reason for the legalization of prostitution. Hell they even get tested every 2-4 weeks constantly.

as opposed to doing it because your daddy will beat you if you don't come home with $50.

Most prostitutes don't have pimps, pimps are too easy of a mark anyways. A guy holding a lot of cash who can't go to the cops? It was like that in the 70s and 80s but not these days.

They want to have their cake and arrest it too.

If it were legal then regulations, oversight and inspections would be able to be put in place that would make it easier to ensure things like that. In addition legalization would allow sex workers to unionize and demand control of the trade.

Maybe if it's do hard to arrest someone without fondling them and infringing on rape, maybe just think about what you're doing and who it's benefiting.

They're doing it because they have no better options.

So, their solution... Is to remove that option?

That's dumb as shit.

There will always be stings for prostitutes, even if it's legal. If it's legal, it will require licensing and health screenings. There will be ineligible women who want to make money, or women who just couldn't afford the licensing fee, and will work anyway. Cops will bust them. Laws like this will still have a place.

Like what? I can give you a bunch of reasons it should be legal off the top of my head:

enforcing safe sex

making sure the prostitutes are disease free

protecting the sex workers from each other, the johns, pimps etc

legal protections

I can go on, and doubt that you can provide good, non-religion based reasons against.

Just in time for gen xers to turn into shitty old prudes.

Well I still think in that case the man is being victimized by the state, but when you compare that to the woman who might have been forced to give the handjob in the first place then she is getting raped and arrested for being raped. I don't think prostitution should be illegal, but if it is, I would certainly prefer enforcement that focuses on the John as compared to the sex worker.

Isn't that how "escorts" skirt the laws? They are selling a "date" and claim that the sex is a personal choice of the escort and not related to the money exchanged for the date.

Maybe prostitutes can sell condoms for a few hundred dollars and offer a "free test drive".

It's not religious people

it's lawmakers and cops.

Uh... hate to break it to you, but in most of the country, the venn diagram of those two sets of people is a circle.

I need you to stick this wayyyyyy up your butthole.

Ted talk

Unfortunately it's easier to say than do. The two main examples of regulating prostitution that I know of (Netherlands and Germany) are both still experiencing issues with it. Netherlands is actually going back to suppressing their red light district (by purchasing back many of the buildings) at least temporarily, and both Netherlands/Germany see sex workers exploited and human trafficking.

Related, I thought this had an interesting perspective on it.

In still trust the FBI a bit more. And they definitely have more oversight, it's just a that what they are explicitly allowed to do is probably more than people realize.

Chicago has a large Catholic population. It's the most liberal part of my state, but let's not pretend that it's some atheist paradise.

The left drags the right, kicking and screaming, into the future on all of these morality issues. Interracial marriage, gay marriage, legalization, just goes on and on.

It isn't even wrong.

Countries where it's legal have higher rates of human trafficking.

https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/

Saying "It already happens to some people, so we should let it happen to more" is a bad argument.

Oh, I'm not claiming they're equal. Just that I know many Democrats who don't think a woman can consent to prostitution. And again, I identify as a leftist, but many people who vote Republican are actually Libertarians who are with the left on those issues.

Ime, Id say a good portion of young Republicans fall into this group. Sad effect of our 2 party system, first past the post voting, and people voting on single issues that were not working together on the same side to advance those issues.

Oh, so cops can just rob money and product from drug dealers and such? Stuff it right in their pockets?

"No Chief, I couldn't confirm if she was a sex worker or not. She stripped me all down and and rubbed me up, but she never got on with sex. I guess she's just been some horny lady looking for a handsome bugger like myself!" "We'll get the next one boss."

Or just end all the nonsense and stop making it illegal for adults to rent their bodies for sex.

Unfortunately, the nature of bible thumpers is that they can't grow up. They need their Jesus night light or Moses rattle or Mohammed blankie before they can go to bed at night.

Why trust the fbi relative to trusting local police forces?

Uh, decades of academic studies? Years of personal experience? You serious? You don't trust the fbi? Fine. You trust the fbi less than Alaska local police? You're a moron.

"Many of them have no better options" is a euphemistic way of saying "Many of them are addicts, survivors of sexual abuse, and runaway, neglected, or abandoned teens, and they're in abusive 'relationships' with pimps who prevent them from accessing the services that could help them."

I get where you're coming from, but the US already imprisons more of its own citizens than any developed country, and your idea would just make that worse. Putting more people in prison isn't the answer. Legalizing is.

And that is the part that should be policed.

I don't agree with the previous post being downvoted. It's wrong , as explained by other replies, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be part of the conversation. It's a common argument and it's constructive to have it here and to have the counter argument right below. Shouldn't downvotes be reserved to hide posts which absence would leave a better read for the next person?

If you had read the article, you would know, it says nothing about them not being able to say no. The article is about them having sex in order to determine if they are sexual workers.

make ... buying illegal

That's criminalizing prostitution, not legalizing it.

Oh boy Punch cards. Chris brown is gonna love this.

The Catholics have a lot of rules that are not included into the Bible, thanks to the pope and other factors.

That's what they risk catching if they don't wear condoms.

The US can't get rid of it's fake purtian and christian 'cultures'

Could you expand it to drugs? You want this meth I'm dealing? Touch my junk. If they won't touch it then they likely are a cop. I mean for street deals it wouldn't be the best but if I was moving keys I would make the buyer do it.

"(In an undercover investigation) they ask one simple question: 'Touch my breast.' OK, I'm out of the car. Done. And the case is over," Anchorage Police Department Deputy Chief Sean Case told the Alaska Dispatch News in a hypothetical example. "If we make that act (of touching) a misdemeanor, we have absolutely no way of getting involved in that type of arrest."

See, the thing is he's right. They pass this law and that is basically no longer an avenue they can go down.

And that's OK. Legalize and regulate, then watch these problems go away and you can actually spend your time fighting trafficking instead of fighting street level prostitutes.

Well, I got a wig and I'm not sure if you're a cop... if thats close enough?

And we could have chain establishments with membership rewards cards!

I mean, they probably could if they weren't being raped by cops, but we can't even convict cops for cold-blooded, racist murders.

"Theyre all going to jail for oral and anal sex with a prostitute. Half of you didn't even use a condom. Hand me that evidence bag." -Deposits ejaculate-

To be fair everyone is at whatever job they are at because they have no better options, otherwise they would be at a better job.

Under the state law in most places, you are guilty of the crime of prostitution as soon as you agree on a specific price for specific services. In other words, no sexual activity need take place to support the charge.

But if you find her online (which is very common these days), and you both agree that you're going to pay her $300 for an hour, and that it's specifically for her time, and no explicit agreement for sex takes place, then the cops really don't have anything to go with. Mind you, I think it should be legal myself, but that is a separate discussion.

Yeah, I had to chuckle at the idea of Chicago being considered some kind of atheist city.

Ruining a mans life because he wants a quickie has an even more negative influence on society.

Ya, I had that realization right after I typed it haha. Poor phrasing or comparison on my part. I was just trying to make a point about small towns and how they operate often with less accountability, structure and oversight.

in places such as amsterdam where you have a lot of tourists flooding in because prostitution is legal, the brothels end up trafficking people in illegally to meet the demand. that's the non-religious argument.

of course, if prostitution were universally legal, and you didn't have red light districts competing to be the best in the world, this wouldnt happen. but those are two pretty lofty goals.

edit: downvotes for providing the argument that was asked for in order to keep the conversation going. stay cancerous, reddit.

Admittedly, I don't know what forces are working against the legalization of prostitution, but I feel like it's a safe bet that the church has a big influence. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church is against premarital sex and all forms of birth control, other than the "natural" method... two kind of important components of legal prostitution.

If prostitution is illegal, then prostitutes who are abused and pimped will not go to the police for help because they know they will be arrested and punished. I've never heard of a good rebuttal to this point.

Then we'd still have women working illegally, and cops would still do stings to catch them.

2 minutes and some moans later. 'i'm not a cop but I only have 3 bucks and a Krispy Kreme coffee coupon. '